ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

Arsenios

Well-known member
We have God living INSIDE of us. Before Christ shed His Blood and gave us entrance into The Holy of Holies there could be no relationship between sinful men and a Holy God. Christ cleansed our sin. God cannot inhabit sinful man. He inhabits our flesh (Christians) and no one in The Old Testament had His Spirit inside of them. He was alongside, ONLY.

Do you not think that Moses, Elijah, and the rest of the Old Testament Holy Ones of God were SATURATED with the Holy Spirit?

I think they were...

I think they were positively DRENCHED in God, dripping forth holiness from every pore of their being...

And I think you are close to what I am getting at here...

They did not have what Paul had...

And my question to you is: What did they not have?

They had Christ in the Holy Spirit by the Father...

A clue is perhaps in this question:

HOW did Elijah have God?

HOW did Paul have God?

BOTH encountered Him personally in Spirit...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but simply redeem them.

I thought He came to call sinners to repentance...

Is not that which the story of the Prodigal Son is all about?

His shed blood accomplished that which made peace between them and God by canceling out the penalty for Adam's transgression [they could not do] that bound all men to separation from the Holiness of the Presence of God. cf Rom. 5:1 KJV.

Do you really think that cancelling the penalty made peace?

Letting Charlie Manson out of prison will stop him from murdering?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Anyone can believe that but, was that the way it was?

Yes...

Because an encounter with God is an encounter with a Person...

And Christ IS the God of the Old Testament...

The Angel of Great Counsel is Christ Himself...

All OT Scripture testifies of Him...

This is His creation, His Bride...

The Father created ALL of it THROUGH Him and IN the Holy Spirit...

One God...

That is why we are Christians...

Arsenios
 

Cross Reference

New member
Yes...

Because an encounter with God is an encounter with a Person...

So why insert Spirit into it?

And Christ IS the God of the Old Testament...

Christ being a Title given Jesus, you must mean the "Word" was the God of the OT, to which I agree.

The Angel of Great Counsel is Christ Himself..
.

What Angel of great counsel?

All OT Scripture testifies of Him...

This is His creation, His Bride...

His Bride??

The Father created ALL of it THROUGH Him and IN the Holy Spirit...

You have the Holy Spirit, why? Is there an instance where the Holy Spirit created anything?

That is why we are Christians...

Arsenios

Really?? Why weren't the OT saints called Christians?
 

Hawkins

Active member
Since he, what??? :confused: Did you understand the question?

Or rather it remains your own question.


Law and Covenant
================
A covenant basically serves its primary purpose in identifying the righteous by putting only the wicked under the judgment of Law. An updated covenant is thus needed if even the righteous have difficulties in keeping the Law specified in an older covenant. God will thus sign off a newer covenant such that only the wicked will be put to death by Law.

A covenant basically has two parts, Law and Grace. The main message conveyed in a covenant is that "you keep the Law specified to an extent up to God's satisfaction such that you will be saved by His Grace".

A human on earth (virtually earth is a realm of Satan) cannot be saved without a covenant and the Grace granted through the covenant. As Grace is granted only under the name of Jesus Christ (there's no other names), no human can thus be saved without Jesus Christ. No one can see the Father except through Jesus Christ.

The reason why a human cannot be saved without a covenant:
The Bible said, sin is the breaking of Law. Adam sinned in Eden. So what Law did Adam break? Obviously it's not Mosaic Law. It is the absolution version of God's Law (i.e., without attaching to any covenant).

The Bible said, lust is a sin. Obviously, this is not found in Mosaic Law (which is attached to a covenant). Possibly it is also from the absolute version of God's Law.

If a human, nearly perfect and was directly made by God, when living inside God's realm (living together with God Himself) failed to keep this absolution version of Law, then how can a human living in Satan's realm (i.e., planet earth) keep such an absolute version of God Law. No one can keep such a version of Law when put outside God's realm (such as humans on earth).

Then why such a version of Law is put in place? In God's Ultimate Plan, an eternity called heaven will be built for humans and angels to live happily with God forever. As a result, a criteria is set up to qualify entities with free will to enter this eternity called heaven. Such a criteria is thus the absolute version of God's Law (Adam somehow failed).

The meaning of Adam's Fall:
Humans with free will cannot be directly put to heaven, as some of them will finally fall. Eden is a necessity for this point to be demonstrated openly as a witness. Angels and later humans thus know why Adam is not directly brought to heaven.

Planet earth becomes another necessity. Here humans are divided as sheep and goats, wheat and weeds. It's more like sift or filter such that only the righteous will be brought to heaven under open witness (of the angels and chosen saints).

Now Adam sinned and was driven out of God's realm (Eden), humans ever since are outside God's realm but in a realm of which Satan is said to be the god. Humans in this Satan's realm will not be able to keep the absolution version of God's Law. They will only go further and further away from God and God's expectation as set forth in terms of His absolute version of Law.

The above has been demonstrated by Noah's event where all mankind became so sinful to be tolerable by God. However, Noah is considered righteous in God's eyes. Now the question becomes how can the righteous be separated from the wicked and be saved!

That drives the need of a covenant with Grace. The righteous can thus be saved through God's Grace. God can grant Grace to save humans this way because in the end Jesus Christ will atone for their sins. God's Grace can thus be granted through Jesus Christ to each and every covenant.

To put it another way, without a covenant containing Grace, no humans can be saved. As a result, God doesn't need humans' agreement to enforce a covenant as without such a covenant no humans can be saved.

Other than the Law part and the Grace part, a covenant also specifies a scope of humans under the covenant.

Today, there are 2 basic covenants enforced on humans. A covenant (possibly originated from Noah) covering the Gentiles (or rather all mankind). The Law part of this covenant is the Law written by God in our hearts. It is closely linked to our conscience and moral code we live by.

The Jews can have an option of adapting another covenant (covering only the Jews and converters accepted by God). The Law part of this covenant is the Mosaic Law. The Jews need to be circumcised and to observe Mosaic Law in order to be covered by this covenant. God said if the Jews don't then they will be "cut off from his people". If a Jew doesn't observe Mosaic Law, he's not a Jew strictly speaking, he makes not much difference than a Gentile.

All humans are thus put under these 2 covenants without exception by default. However you can see here that today's humans are pretty much dead, as the Jews fail to keep the Mosaic Law and Gentiles fail to keep the Law written in their hearts.

That's why God signed off a New Covenant some 2000 years ago to cater for today's situation.

The New Covenant is the final covenant as the Law part has already been minimized to 0. Under this covenant, humans are saved by faith alone (i.e., Grace alone but without Law attached). It is not a 'compulsory' covenant as the 2 old covenants mentioned above. It's rather an 'optional' covenant which you can choose when you have the consent as an adult (i.e., you are mature enough to make a choice).

At last but not least. Other than the Law Part, the Grace part and a scope of humans, each covenant would have some core commandments acting as the foundation of the Law part of a covenant. I think that most of these commandments can be copied over from an older covenant to a newer covenant.

The 10 commandments are thus copied over from the Old covenant to the New covenant but except for the Sabbath. You can speculate the effect by looking into the past. How many Christians (who are saved) in the past 2000 years ever observed the Sabbath. The answer is 'Few'? Have they all broken God's commandment for them? Or rather God already foresaw this and thus intentionally excluded Sabbath from the New commandment!!!

Since the Law part in the New Covenant no longer exists, these commandments are no longer obeyed as Law, they are rather obeyed as Christ's teachings and His commands.


Relevant verses:

Romans 10:4 (NIV)*
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

To the righteous, the Law no longer applied to the righteous as the primary purpose of a newer covenant is to put only the wicked to death under the judgment of Law.


Romans 5:20-21 (NIV)*
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.*

Each older covenant brought in Law. Along time, sin increased that even the righteous may find difficulties in keeping Law. God however will grant Grace the more such that the righteous will be spared but only the wicked will be put to death under the judgment of Law.

Mark 10:19 (NIV)
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’

Sabbath is not omitted with no reason.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Or rather it remains your own question.


Law and Covenant
================
A covenant basically serves its primary purpose in identifying the righteous by putting only the wicked under the judgment of Law. An updated covenant is thus needed if even the righteous have difficulties in keeping the Law specified in an older covenant. God will thus sign off a newer covenant such that only the wicked will be put to death by Law.

A covenant basically has two parts, Law and Grace. The main message conveyed in a covenant is that "you keep the Law specified to an extent up to God's satisfaction such that you will be saved by His Grace".

A human on earth (virtually earth is a realm of Satan) cannot be saved without a covenant and the Grace granted through the covenant. As Grace is granted only under the name of Jesus Christ (there's no other names), no human can thus be saved without Jesus Christ. No one can see the Father except through Jesus Christ.

The reason why a human cannot be saved without a covenant:
The Bible said, sin is the breaking of Law. Adam sinned in Eden. So what Law did Adam break? Obviously it's not Mosaic Law. It is the absolution version of God's Law (i.e., without attaching to any covenant).

The Bible said, lust is a sin. Obviously, this is not found in Mosaic Law (which is attached to a covenant). Possibly it is also from the absolute version of God's Law.

If a human, nearly perfect and was directly made by God, when living inside God's realm (living together with God Himself) failed to keep this absolution version of Law, then how can a human living in Satan's realm (i.e., planet earth) keep such an absolute version of God Law. No one can keep such a version of Law when put outside God's realm (such as humans on earth).

Then why such a version of Law is put in place? In God's Ultimate Plan, an eternity called heaven will be built for humans and angels to live happily with God forever. As a result, a criteria is set up to qualify entities with free will to enter this eternity called heaven. Such a criteria is thus the absolute version of God's Law (Adam somehow failed).

The meaning of Adam's Fall:
Humans with free will cannot be directly put to heaven, as some of them will finally fall. Eden is a necessity for this point to be demonstrated openly as a witness. Angels and later humans thus know why Adam is not directly brought to heaven.

Planet earth becomes another necessity. Here humans are divided as sheep and goats, wheat and weeds. It's more like sift or filter such that only the righteous will be brought to heaven under open witness (of the angels and chosen saints).

Now Adam sinned and was driven out of God's realm (Eden), humans ever since are outside God's realm but in a realm of which Satan is said to be the god. Humans in this Satan's realm will not be able to keep the absolution version of God's Law. They will only go further and further away from God and God's expectation as set forth in terms of His absolute version of Law.

The above has been demonstrated by Noah's event where all mankind became so sinful to be tolerable by God. However, Noah is considered righteous in God's eyes. Now the question becomes how can the righteous be separated from the wicked and be saved!

That drives the need of a covenant with Grace. The righteous can thus be saved through God's Grace. God can grant Grace to save humans this way because in the end Jesus Christ will atone for their sins. God's Grace can thus be granted through Jesus Christ to each and every covenant.

To put it another way, without a covenant containing Grace, no humans can be saved. As a result, God doesn't need humans' agreement to enforce a covenant as without such a covenant no humans can be saved.

Other than the Law part and the Grace part, a covenant also specifies a scope of humans under the covenant.

Today, there are 2 basic covenants enforced on humans. A covenant (possibly originated from Noah) covering the Gentiles (or rather all mankind). The Law part of this covenant is the Law written by God in our hearts. It is closely linked to our conscience and moral code we live by.

The Jews can have an option of adapting another covenant (covering only the Jews and converters accepted by God). The Law part of this covenant is the Mosaic Law. The Jews need to be circumcised and to observe Mosaic Law in order to be covered by this covenant. God said if the Jews don't then they will be "cut off from his people". If a Jew doesn't observe Mosaic Law, he's not a Jew strictly speaking, he makes not much difference than a Gentile.

All humans are thus put under these 2 covenants without exception by default. However you can see here that today's humans are pretty much dead, as the Jews fail to keep the Mosaic Law and Gentiles fail to keep the Law written in their hearts.

That's why God signed off a New Covenant some 2000 years ago to cater for today's situation.

The New Covenant is the final covenant as the Law part has already been minimized to 0. Under this covenant, humans are saved by faith alone (i.e., Grace alone but without Law attached). It is not a 'compulsory' covenant as the 2 old covenants mentioned above. It's rather an 'optional' covenant which you can choose when you have the consent as an adult (i.e., you are mature enough to make a choice).

At last but not least. Other than the Law Part, the Grace part and a scope of humans, each covenant would have some core commandments acting as the foundation of the Law part of a covenant. I think that most of these commandments can be copied over from an older covenant to a newer covenant.

The 10 commandments are thus copied over from the Old covenant to the New covenant but except for the Sabbath. You can speculate the effect by looking into the past. How many Christians (who are saved) in the past 2000 years ever observed the Sabbath. The answer is 'Few'? Have they all broken God's commandment for them? Or rather God already foresaw this and thus intentionally excluded Sabbath from the New commandment!!!

Since the Law part in the New Covenant no longer exists, these commandments are no longer obeyed as Law, they are rather obeyed as Christ's teachings and His commands.


Relevant verses:

Romans 10:4 (NIV)*
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

To the righteous, the Law no longer applied to the righteous as the primary purpose of a newer covenant is to put only the wicked to death under the judgment of Law.


Romans 5:20-21 (NIV)*
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.*

Each older covenant brought in Law. Along time, sin increased that even the righteous may find difficulties in keeping Law. God however will grant Grace the more such that the righteous will be spared but only the wicked will be put to death under the judgment of Law.

Mark 10:19 (NIV)
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’

Sabbath is not omitted with no reason.


Yer over my head, bunk.
 

Hawkins

Active member
Yer over my head, bunk.

Leave it there for others to read, if you failed to grasp.

Paul as a Pharisee keeping the Law is dead. He ever called himself one of the worst sinners. He's dead not because he didn't keep the Law well. He's dead because he chose to stand in the way of God's salvation through the New Covenant by persecuting the believers of Jesus.

Nothing can be more clear here.


1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV)
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
We have God living INSIDE of us. Before Christ shed His Blood and gave us entrance into The Holy of Holies there could be no relationship between sinful men and a Holy God. Christ cleansed our sin. God cannot inhabit sinful man. He inhabits our flesh (Christians) and no one in The Old Testament had His Spirit inside of them. He was alongside, ONLY.

I think the testimony of certain OT saints speaks otherwise, but you probably won't accept that testimony because your theology says it ain't so.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
That's right. Peace as in being reconciled to Him for the reasons stated.

I think the testimony of the OT is that the wicked had no peace with God, not that no man had peace with God. I haven't seen anything to indicate no human being could be at peace with God. I think that's a post-apostolic invention based on scriptures that don't say what you might want them to say. A lot of non-sequitur IOW.
 

Cross Reference

New member
I think the testimony of the OT is that the wicked had no peace with God, not that no man had peace with God. I haven't seen anything to indicate no human being could be at peace with God. I think that's a post-apostolic invention based on scriptures that don't say what you might want them to say. A lot of non-sequitur IOW.

The shed blood of Jesus made peace with God. It was the "Blood of the Lamb", just in case you need further clarification, that took away the sins of the world. Translation: Adam's transgression was canceled out that released man from the bondage of spiritual death.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
[Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).] "So if the means is the same, Old Testament and New, is the Salvation also the same?"
We are saved by his grace (Eph 2:8-9). Salvation is in Christ in both the Old and New Testament (Acts 4:12).

[Be sure your faith is a saving faith (Rom. 10:9, 10) not a temporary faith (Lk 8:13).] "How would I test for either?"
"...How can one know with certainty that he has passed from death to life? In short, his love for the brethren will be the greatest indicator of this. If one does not have a love for his brothers and sisters in the faith, then he is not saved (1 Jn 3:14). If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, the bible says he is a liar (1 Jn 4:20). He who does not love does not know God, for God is love (1 Jn 4:7–8).

Another clue as to the genuineness of one's profession of faith is the desire of his heart (Eze 36:26). If one desires what the devil would desire for him (2 Co 4:4), then he belongs to Satan not God (Jn 8:44). Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 Jn 2:4)..." Full text: Once Saved Always Saved?
 

Cross Reference

New member
If Jesus Christ had not yet shed His blood in the OT, how could there be salvation, i,e., peace with God made for those who awaited redemption?
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
We are saved by his grace (Eph 2:8-9). Salvation is in Christ in both the Old and New Testament (Acts 4:12).

"...How can one know with certainty that he has passed from death to life? In short, his love for the brethren will be the greatest indicator of this. If one does not have a love for his brothers and sisters in the faith, then he is not saved (1 Jn 3:14). If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, the bible says he is a liar (1 Jn 4:20). He who does not love does not know God, for God is love (1 Jn 4:7–8).

Another clue as to the genuineness of one's profession of faith is the desire of his heart (Eze 36:26). If one desires what the devil would desire for him (2 Co 4:4), then he belongs to Satan not God (Jn 8:44). Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 Jn 2:4)..." Full text: Once Saved Always Saved?

So that it is a matter of personal introspection?
And keeping His Commandments?
And heartfelt desire?
If one feels love for his brothers?

Seems subjective... How about this: God shall judge the Living and the dead, yes? Who are the Living, and who are the dead? If you have had a personal experience of the Holy Spirit, does that make you either?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
If Jesus Christ had not yet shed His blood in the OT,
how could there be salvation,
i,e., peace with God made for those who awaited redemption?

David writes in Psalm 50 (51 in the LXX)

Restore unto me
The Joy of Thy Salvation...
And renew a right spirit...
Within me.


Now David was an Old Testament Prophet and King...
He is writing about Salvation from God...
Even the RENEWING of his spirit within him...
BY GOD, and by no one else...

Is there ANY DIFFERENCE between this Salvation...
And the Salvation of the New Testament Saints?

And if yes, then what is it?
And if not, why not, for there seem to be huge differences...

Arsenios
 

Levolor

New member
Is there ANY DIFFERENCE between this Salvation...
And the Salvation of the New Testament Saints?

And if yes, then what is it?
And if not, why not, for there seem to be huge differences...

Arsenios

Perhaps Job can help us answer this question?

Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both.
Job 9:33
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Because an encounter with God is an encounter with a Person...
So why insert Spirit into it?

Because the Holy Spirit is a Person...

Christ being a Title given Jesus, you must mean the "Word" was the God of the OT, to which I agree.

The Old Testament Saints only knew the pre-incarnate Logos.

Through the Gospels, we NOW know the Incarnate Christ...

The Person of each of these is one and the same Person, known on earth in the flesh as Jesus Anointed (= Christ)

What Angel of great counsel?

That may be an Orthodox term - I have heard it used many times, but I could not find in my search engine, and I will ask...

His Bride??

Creation is the adornment of His Bride, the Church... It is, in Greek, the Cosmos, the root term for the adornment of women in the world, cosmetics, which hide blemishes and enhance features...

You have the Holy Spirit, why? Is there an instance where the Holy Spirit created anything?

The Holy Spirit is the One in Whom we are Sealed in the Anointing, and is God before all time, with the Father and the Son... I like to think of him as the "administrator" of the world, administrating all the actions occurring all the time... But God is One, and the Holy Spirit is God, as is Christ and the Father... It is just the way it has come to us...

Really?? Why weren't the OT saints called Christians?

Christ, THROUGH WHOM all creation was created, is the Heir of the Father, BY Whom all Creation was created, within the Holy Spirit of the Father WITHIN WHOM was all creation created...

We who are adopted into Christ are co-heirs and call ourselves Christians because of the Anointing we received in Christ... The Anointing is the Giving of the Holy Spirit...

Words can get in the way here, which is why precise language is important - Not to draw inferences but to avoid tangents...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Perhaps Job can help us answer this question?

Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both.
Job 9:33

Job was Old Testament Salvation...
NO mediation between God and Job...
And some kind of relationship!
And on familiar terms, each with the other...
God approved in every way...
And polished by the trials God gave him...
And rewarded after them...

So what exactly does New Testament Salvation ADD TO what Job had??

Or does it add nothing?

Arsenios
 
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