ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW

[Cross Reference]

Heb 11:39-40
And these all,
having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us
should not be made perfect.

So we can say that they did not go to Sheoul or Gehenna, but instead went to Paradise, but did not go to Heaven?

This sounds like the positive side of purgatory!

Arsenios

That works for me.

 

[Cross Reference]

So when I DO all that, what will I receive and what will it look like and what will it be?

A.

How can anyone answer those questions??? When it happens you will know. The hunger and thirsting will only intensify from a desire to know Him per John 17:3. I have come to know that as the evidence the new birth.

 

[Cross Reference]

So when I DO all that, what will I receive and what will it look like and what will it be?

A.

Is your heart right with God that it can or has happened?

 

[Arsenios]

Is your heart right with God that it can or has happened?

Of course...

The question is how does this happen NOW that it DID NOT HAPPEN in the OT days of Yore?

They did all that you say, and received Salvation that did not get them to Heaven...

Until we came along...

So how does that work?

Arsenios

 

[Hawkins]

What is the difference between Salvation in the Old Testament and that found in the New Testament?

Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, John the Baptist...

What was Salvation in the OT?
What IS Salvation in Christ?

Are they different?
The same?

Arsenios

More or less the same.

God is the God of Jacob....
God is the God of the living...

Jacob is thus not the dead. He's saved.


In a nutshell,
Old covenant = you will be saved by Grace if you have kept the Law (attached to a covenant).
New covenant = you will be saved by grace alone (as the Law attached has been minimized to zero).

Without Christ, there's no grace granted.

 

[Cross Reference]

Old covenant = you will be saved by Grace if you have kept the Law (attached to a covenant).

Paul kept the law.

New covenant = you will be saved by grace alone (as the Law attached has been minimized to zero).

Without Christ, there's no grace granted.

Therefore the law is Jesus Christ.

 

[Hawkins]

Paul kept the law.

Yes, however he's dead because he stood in the way of a newer covenant.

Therefore the law is Jesus Christ.

No, therefore the grace part of a covenant is from Jesus.

A covenant needs to be updated once its Law part can on longer be kept by even the righteous. The updating of a covenant is for the righteous to be spared by putting only the wicked under the judgment of Law (attached to a covenant).

What Adam broke is however the absolute version of God's Law which is not attached to any covenant.

"Lust is a sin" <-- this is obviously not part of Mosaic Law. Possibly it belongs to the absolute version of God's Law. No one can keep the absolute version of God's Law. Adam who is inside God's realm failed to do so. Humans (that is us) who are outside God's realm (virtually we are in Satan's realm) can hardly keep such a version of Law. Humans however can keep Law attached to a covenant to an extent God will deem them as righteous for them to be saved by Grace (through Jesus).

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, however he's dead because he stood in the way of a newer covenant.

When did he die before becoming apart the new covenant?

No, therefore the grace part of a covenant is from Jesus.

I thought you said the OT salvation was by grace as well??

 

[Cross Reference]

Of course...

The question is how does this happen NOW that it DID NOT HAPPEN in the OT days of Yore?

They did all that you say, and received Salvation that did not get them to Heaven...

Until we came along...

So how does that work?

Arsenios

When was the blood of Jesus made effective that the OT saints were freed to enter heaven?

 

[oatmeal]

Nice reply...

So what are we given now that the Prophets of Old did not have?

And HOW is it given to us?

And what do we need to do in order to receive it?

You say we are given seed...

What is the difference between being given seed, and John the Baptist knowing Christ while both were still in the womb, and the Seed which the Blessed Virgin conceived?

Arsenios

Thanks.

In this age of grace, eternal life is a gift to us. Romans 6:23

Outside of grace, that is, the law, it was earned by faithfulness to the end.

The gift of salvation is another name for eternal life/holy spirit/righteousness/born again of incorruptible seed.

This gift, with its many facets, is received by doing Romans 10:9-10

 

[Hawkins]

When did he die before becoming apart the new covenant?

Since he persecuted the Christians.

I thought you said the OT salvation was by grace as well??

Yes, sure. No one can see the Father except through Christ.

To put it another way. A covenant is needed because humans outside God's realm can hardly keep the absolute version of God's Law. A covenant contains mainly 2 parts. The Law part is for humans to keep, the grace part is for humans to be saved once they can keep the Law (of a covenant) to God's satisfaction.

If on the other hand, a human can keep the absolute version of God's Law, he doesn't need to be saved by a covenant.

God doesn't need humans' agreement when enforcing a basic covenant as without such a covenant humans are all dead.

 

[serpentdove]

Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

Be sure your faith is a saving faith (Rom. 10:9, 10) not a temporary faith (Lk 8:13).

 

[Nang]

What is the difference between Salvation in the Old Testament and that found in the New Testament?

Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, John the Baptist...

What was Salvation in the OT?
What IS Salvation in Christ?

Are they different?
The same?

Arsenios

There is only one Savior, one atonement, one gospel, one faith, one salvation.

The O.T. Saints know the inheritance of glory in Christ, as surely as the N.T. believers.

Else, how is the event of Moses and Elijah communing with Jesus Christ in the "Transfiguration" on the mount possible? Matthew 17:1-3

 

[Krsto]

I am constantly amazed how many people still don't know that until Jesus Christ shed his blood on the cross no peace with God was made that would have reconciled man with Himself that would have opened the doors to heaven for the righteous.

This seems to imply that no man had peace with God? I'm of the opinion only the wicked needed a way to have peace with God. Jesus did say he came not for the well but for the sick, no?

 

[Arsenios]

When was the blood of Jesus made effective that the OT saints were freed to enter heaven?

When Jesus brought them forth with Himself at His Resurrection...

Great question...

Arsenios

 

[OCTOBER23]

Arsenios

This is an OLD TOPIC.

Use the Search button to find all the hundreds of posts on it.

EYE FOR AN EYE AND TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.

Exodus 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deuteronomy 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

 

[Arsenios]

More or less the same.

God is the God of Jacob....
God is the God of the living...

Jacob is thus not the dead. He's saved.


In a nutshell,
Old covenant = you will be saved by Grace if you have kept the Law (attached to a covenant).
New covenant = you will be saved by grace alone (as the Law attached has been minimized to zero).

Without Christ, there's no grace granted.

So you think it is just that the means have shifted somewhat, but the end result is the same? The Gospel of Jesus Christ, announcing the Good News that the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now at hand, and telling us what to do about it so as to enter it [repent and be baptized], would seem to be the New Testament Salvation, yes?

So does OT salvation have this?

And what, exactly, IS this Kingdom of Heaven?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Thanks.

In this age of grace, eternal life is a gift to us. Romans 6:23

Do you understand eternal life as John defined it, KNOWING God...?

Outside of grace, that is, the law, it was earned by faithfulness to the end.

So that now we can be faithless and live forever??

The gift of salvation is another name for eternal life/holy spirit/righteousness/born again of incorruptible seed.

So if you are saturated with the Holy Spirit, do you HAVE eternal Life? And if yes, they why did the OT saints NOT gain perfection?

This gift, with its many facets, is received by doing Romans 10:9-10

OK - This gets to the nub - The Gift - What is it? What is Salvation now that the OT Prophets and Holy Ones did not have?

Arsenios

 

[Krsto]

What is the difference between Salvation in the Old Testament and that found in the New Testament?

Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest of the Old Testament Prophets, John the Baptist...

What was Salvation in the OT?
What IS Salvation in Christ?

Are they different?
The same?

Arsenios

1st of all, it seems the Jews' concept of salvation was a Messiah leading them to throw off the yoke of oppression from Rome and Jesus disappointed them with his turn the other cheek, walk a second mile, don't live by the sword teaching. They may have gotten that from the OT, I'm not sure.

The NT concept of salvation and eternal life looks like this: love God and man and you will inherit eternal life. That life starts today if you turn from your evil ways and stop living in wickedness and continues as one gets set free from the bondage of sin which brings death. If one walks in the light, rises up to walk in newness of life, and continues therein until death then this eternal life carries forward into the afterlife.

This is how Jesus put it in Mt. 25:34 and Lk. 10:25: hen shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

None of this has changed since then.

 

[Arsenios]

Men have always been saved the same way--by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

So if the means is the same, Old Testament and New, is the Salvation also the same?

Be sure your faith is a saving faith (Rom. 10:9, 10) not a temporary faith (Lk 8:13).

How would I test for either?

Arsenios