you have to remember what Jesus said about
one flock
one shepherd
and
combine it with what Jesus said about peter, the rock, and the church
the pope feeds us with food for thought
makes sure we don't wander off into heresy
ECT SALVATION: OLD TESTAMENT VS NEW
- Thread starter Arsenios
- Start date
you have to remember what Jesus said about
one flock
one shepherd
and
combine it with what Jesus said about peter, the rock, and the church
the pope feeds us with food for thought
makes sure we don't wander off into heresy
Cross Reference
New member
He feeds you nothing by comparison to what a serious Christian can feed you. But, you worship your church. You prefer mother's word over Father's. That is the reason you don't know which way "up" is. What can be more heretical than that?
did you get this from chambers?
Cross Reference
New member
we don't worship our church
and
we don't prefer mother's word over Our Father's
can you show where you got that from me?
Cross Reference
New member
I could show others not of your stripe but not you and for reasons already stated. I rather pound sand than any longer make an attempt.
Arsenios
Well-known member
It is an essential point...
It is Christ Who baptizes us into HIMSELF...
And He does so AT THE HANDS of His Servants WITHIN His Body, the Church...
And He does so WITHIN the (Power of the) Holy Spirit - God...
Most folks here think that when one encounters God in the Holy Spirit, that this constitutes their Baptism by God, apart from the hands of the Servants of Christ in His Body...
That is the truth...
And a big 10 - 4, Good Buddy!
So you teach that Baptism into Christ's Body is NOT Baptism in the Holy Spirit? Then in what do you think it is?
So it is OF but not IN the Spirit that one is baptized into the Body of Christ?
I may be getting lost in the syntax here...
This should NOT be interpreted as meaning that "by one Spirit APART FROM THE HANDS OF MEN are we all baptized..." Instead, it should be understood as "by the POWER OF one Spirit are we baptized AT THE HANDS OF CHRIST'S SERVANTS..."
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Do you not confess the Creed?
Does not the Creed confess:
I believe IN... One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church"??
The Orthodox sure do...
How can one worship Christ and not worship His Body Whose Head He IS? It is an essential feature of the Mystery of the Faith held in a pure conscience: The Mystery of the Body of Christ on earth after His Ascension into the Heavens...
But mostly, I just wanted to bump this thread...
Most Protestants do not have a 'high' view of Christ's Body on earth... They regard the Church as a Big Organization of Men... They do not have a grasp of its theanthropic nature, and regard it more as a kind of mystical body not grounded in the fundamentally unchanging ekklesial gatherings of the People of God...
They regard "Personal Reationship with Jesus" or a co-equivalent as something that has nothing to do with Big Human Organizations called, for instance, the RCC or the EOC or the Coptic Christian Church, and on and on...
When the witness given in blood, and being given in blood to this day [21 Copts beheaded a few days ago in Lybia by Islamic Soldiers because they were Copts - One was an Islamic man who saw the Light and Joy in their faces and joined with them and was killed too, and found his Salvation the last day of his life] is the unchanging nature of the Faith of Christ across the first thousand years of Christianity... And indeed the second...
Arsenios
Cross Reference
New member
Nowhere in the scriptures of either the simple minded or the "pinheads" can the worship of the Body of Christ be found.
Krsto
Well-known member
It is an essential point...
It is Christ Who baptizes us into HIMSELF...
And He does so AT THE HANDS of His Servants WITHIN His Body, the Church...
And He does so WITHIN the (Power of the) Holy Spirit - God...
Most folks here think that when one encounters God in the Holy Spirit, that this constitutes their Baptism by God, apart from the hands of the Servants of Christ in His Body...
That is the truth...
And a big 10 - 4, Good Buddy!
So you teach that Baptism into Christ's Body is NOT Baptism in the Holy Spirit? Then in what do you think it is?
So it is OF but not IN the Spirit that one is baptized into the Body of Christ?
I may be getting lost in the syntax here...
This should NOT be interpreted as meaning that "by one Spirit APART FROM THE HANDS OF MEN are we all baptized..." Instead, it should be understood as "by the POWER OF one Spirit are we baptized AT THE HANDS OF CHRIST'S SERVANTS..."
Arsenios
1 Cor. 12:13 says: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
I take "by one Spirit" as the Spirit doing it, not men. I don't see any reason to think men baptize people into the body. Seems like adding to what was written. I do see people getting Spirit filled/baptized in the Spirit/have the Holy Spirit come on them by the laying on of hands, as I've had the opportunity to do with some brethren, but by no means is laying on of hands required in order for this to happen. But, that's all different from being immersed into the body by the Spirit. I don't see any reason to believe that's anything other than a work of the Spirit alone, without hands being laid.
If the gifts of the Spirit can be given without laying on of hands, and those are for the building up of the body, I'm not sure why you would insist the initial immersion into the body has to have hands involved.
Arsenios
Well-known member
και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι
That yellow portion translated as BY is the Greek word EN, and it means the same as the English word IN, or WITHIN... So that when an Orthodox Christian reads BY, he or she fills in mentally the understanding "BY means of..." And you are filling in "BY the Person of..." Were it to be properly translated as IN the Holy Spirit, there would not be so much room for confusion, for then it clearly means "IN the Power of..." the Holy Spirit...
I insist because that is the way God set it up to be done, and it is the way Christ had it done for Him, that we should follow IF we follow Him... The Spirit CAN give the Spirit, but the giving of the Spirit is not what is unique to New Testament Salvation - The OT Saints ALL had the Holy Spirit/God... What we are receiving is not merely the Holy Spirit, but entry into Christ Himself, Who has trampled down death by (His Own) Death... You see, He did not overcome death in YOUR flesh, but only in His Own, so that our Salvation IN Him is what we receive when we are Baptized INTO Christ...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
The ACQUISITION of the Holy Spirit leads to Salvation...
Old Testament Saints ALL HAD the Holy Spirit...
New Testament Saints ALL HAVE the Holy Spirit...
In terms of ACQUISITION of the Holy Spirit...
There is NO DIFFERENCE in God's Salvation...
Between OLD Testament and NEW Testament Saints...
They are identical in every respect...
Yet the DIFFERENCE is EVERYTHING...
Matt 11:11
And the difference is NOT the acquisition of the Holy Spirit...
This is why the HAVING of the Holy Spirit...
Or the VISITATION of the Holy Spirit...
Or WALKING in the Power of the Holy Spirit...
IS NOT BAPTISM INTO CHRIST...
Because ALL the Pre-Christian Saints HAD ALL these things...
And we who follow Christ in obedience to Christ...
Who repent and are BAPTIZED INTO Christ...
We have what they did not have:
Heb_11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
but having seen them afar off,
and were persuaded of them,
and embraced them,
and confessed
that they were strangers and pilgrims
upon the earth.
They ALL DIED, filled with faith and the Holy Spirit...
Heb_11:39
And these all,
having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:
They ALL had faith that would shame ANY of us...
They ALL walked FULLY in the POWER of the Holy Spirit...
Yet in ALL THIS, NONE received the PROMISE...
Because NOT ONE of them WAS BAPTIZED into Christ...
The Apostle Paul...
Was baptized into Christ...
By Ananias...
A Servant of Christ...
In the Body of Christ...
Acting in obedience to Christ...
Whom Paul was persecuting...
Paul did NOT enter the Body of Christ on the road to Damascus...
THAT event, you see, was but his being CALLED by Christ...
ENTRY came at the hands of Ananias...
Arsenios
Old Testament Saints ALL HAD the Holy Spirit...
New Testament Saints ALL HAVE the Holy Spirit...
In terms of ACQUISITION of the Holy Spirit...
There is NO DIFFERENCE in God's Salvation...
Between OLD Testament and NEW Testament Saints...
They are identical in every respect...
Yet the DIFFERENCE is EVERYTHING...
Matt 11:11
And the difference is NOT the acquisition of the Holy Spirit...
This is why the HAVING of the Holy Spirit...
Or the VISITATION of the Holy Spirit...
Or WALKING in the Power of the Holy Spirit...
IS NOT BAPTISM INTO CHRIST...
Because ALL the Pre-Christian Saints HAD ALL these things...
And we who follow Christ in obedience to Christ...
Who repent and are BAPTIZED INTO Christ...
We have what they did not have:
Heb_11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
but having seen them afar off,
and were persuaded of them,
and embraced them,
and confessed
that they were strangers and pilgrims
upon the earth.
They ALL DIED, filled with faith and the Holy Spirit...
Heb_11:39
And these all,
having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:
They ALL had faith that would shame ANY of us...
They ALL walked FULLY in the POWER of the Holy Spirit...
Yet in ALL THIS, NONE received the PROMISE...
Because NOT ONE of them WAS BAPTIZED into Christ...
The Apostle Paul...
Was baptized into Christ...
By Ananias...
A Servant of Christ...
In the Body of Christ...
Acting in obedience to Christ...
Whom Paul was persecuting...
Paul did NOT enter the Body of Christ on the road to Damascus...
THAT event, you see, was but his being CALLED by Christ...
ENTRY came at the hands of Ananias...
Arsenios
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Would you say that the OT Saints had the indwelling Holy Spirit or was the Holy Spirit intimately and individually upon them?
What is the Orthodox view of the distinction of Pentecost in this regard?
Arsenios
Well-known member
Yes...
Inside and outside...
Saturated...
Glowing, in the case of Moses...
Abiding in them...
Remaining...
As did the Dove upon Christ...
Come down from the opened heavens...
As He emerged from Jordan River's waters...
The BOUNDARY of the Promised Land...
Others can explain it better than I, yet by God's Grace perhaps we can inquire...
The Jews crossed the Jordan after their Baptism in the Red Sea and their wanderings in the wilderness, seeking the God-Promised Land of their inheritance... And it was only AFTER they entered the Promised Land that they encountered the Giants, Goliath being the Typos... And all feared this Goliath, who strutted back and forth in all his strength and mocked them grievously...
Until David...
A little shepherd-boy king-to-be...
Who looked upon Goliath and his arrogance...
And remember? He became indignant!
We all know how he took Goliath's head...
Well, the Faithful were all Baptized into Christ at His Ascension, but they were too weak to BEAR the further things which Christ had yet to teach them... And these teachings are those of the hard and narrow way of humility in suffering... And it is this which the Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost gave to them... POWER to overcome the giants of the opposing demonic forces into which they were being thrust, as Apostles of Christ... The power to rejoice in their infirmities to the Glory of God, where His Power is PERFECTED in human weakness...
Pentecost also gave to them the speaking in tongues, which was as a Sign to them, and served to identify the People of God... Yet moreso, as Paul exhorted them, to prophesy, the greater Gift of the Spirit, not readily given, yet attainable to those earnestly seeking and willing to co-suffer with Paul as with Christ, "...as it were, appointed unto death..."
But what they HAVE, that the OT Saints did NOT have, is not the Holy Spirit saturating them, but much more...
They have UNION with the Hypostasis of the Risen Christ IN THEIR OWN hypostasis...
There comes a union of the person being baptized into Christ with the Person of Christ Himself,
and this co-en-Hypostatic UNION in Baptism INTO Christ IS the New Creation
that we BECOME in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...
NOT in POWER do we become one with Christ in Baptism,
But One in Person with the Son of God incarnate and ascended...
The more we become less our selves in self-denial...
The more we become Christ-in-us...
And in this, the very flesh-body of Christ gains increase...
Every time a believer is Baptized by that Body into that Body...
The acquisition of the Power of the Holy Spirit, following Pentecost, is a function of God's purposing conjoined with the person's willingness to follow Christ in ascending the Cross, as "appointed unto death"...
And it is in this that we regain the beauty which Adam lost...
When he turned from God to self in the Garden...
And in the shame of his ugliness...
He sought to hide from God...
Arsenios
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Krsto
Well-known member
I think en means more than in or within, but also by means of, and a number of other uses. It has broad meaning which I don't think you are going to narrow down in this verse to just what you want. Also, Jesus was not baptized into the body of Christ through water baptism. In fact, I'd say the fact he was baptized in water is a good reason to believe water baptism has nothing to do with baptism into the body of Christ.
Arsenios
Well-known member
The usage of this preposition "en" is consistent in Scripture regarding Baptism IN the Holy Spirit... Plus both IN and WITHIN are the FUNDAMENTAL meanings of this Greek term... So that if you wish to argue for a different meaning, or even a derived one, you are free to do so, and will be required to demonstrate why... The theology of the West in most of the Protestant Tradition does not allow the High view of Baptism, and tends to extol visitations by the Holy Spirit as what Baptism really means... So that they then tend to translate according to their theological presuppositions... And I do not have a problem with that - I am sure that the Orthodox do so as well... But when one is claiming exegetical Biblical derivation of doctrines, then one must be prepared to defend such doctrines on the basis of what it is that is actually written IN the Bible... And the simple fact is that there is no case in the entire Bible where the Bible states that a visitation of the Holy Spirit constitutes baptism...
Even with Paul, who met Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus, was not in that event baptized... Christ sent him into the hands of His Servant, Ananias... It was Ananias who Baptized him in water AT the instruction of the risen Lord...
Which raises another issue for the MAD theory, because IF Paul was to be given a Holy-Spirit-Only-Dry-Baptism as a part of the NEW GOSPEL Christ was giving him to preach against the curcumcision and ONLY to the uncircumcision, then WHY oh WHY did He have Paul BAPTIZED at the HANDS of Ananias OF the Circumcision IN water???
Hello???
Christ was baptized in order that ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS be fulfilled...
Are you arguing that there is Righteousness outside of Christ?
Ananias with his own hands baptized Paul...
And Paul himself says that we are baptized into Christ...
Can you do the math?
Gal_3:27
For as many of you
as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.
Are you not a follower of Paul??
I sure am...
I mean, if for some reason you are too offended by the Baptism of Christ to FOLLOW Christ and be baptized in the Baptism of Christ in Jordan's Waters, then perhaps you might find some room in your heart for the Baptism of Paul at the Hands of the Jew, Ananias, who restored Paul's sight and gave to Paul the Holy Spirit He did not have after his encounter with the Risen Christ on the Road to Damascus... These all are but the Servants of our Lord - Peter, John, Iakovos, Andrew, Thomas, Paul of Tarsus... Their jobs are to spread the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, teaching all that Christ commanded them to be carefully doing, and baptizing them...
Nowhere in the entire Bible is there a sentence that states: The Holy Spirit will Baptize Believers into Christ... EVERY Scripture states that MEN who are Servants of God in the Body of Christ are the ones who DO the Baptism of Christ that enters the Believer into the Body of Christ...
Arsenios
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