Theology Club: Romans 11 Issues

heir

TOL Subscriber
That first assertion is your assertion, based on your obvious, first impression reading of your modern North American (incorrectly informal at that) English sense of words into the KJV's 500 years old, Early Modern English sentence structures.
This is just a long winded way of telling me I can't believe what the KJB says, but I do.



The internal evidence of Romans through Philemon points to the Romans having already known Paul's gospel before he even wrote Romans to them.
No, those are just your preconceived notions. Romans clearly shows a letter written to those who Paul desired to come unto to preach the some spiritual gift to establish them which is the gospel of Christ.
Your view is off.
I am resting with what saith the scripture.

Its every assertion appoints back to the exact first impression/ Acts read into Paul, etc., study methods of the 28ers.
You never fail to associate me me with a "28er" of which I am not, but a Bible believer.

Like it or not, get offended or not, you need to be Acts 17:11 about this.
I endevour to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. I'm confident that those to whom God foreknew would believe, did and will including the Romans (Romans 11:5 KJV, Romans 8:29-30 KJV) who were saved out of a remnant of Israel/out of the olive tree (of which they were already fat partakers, but that was coming down) and into the Body of Christ by the receiving of Paul's letter to them with his gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery!
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
That first assertion is your assertion, based on your obvious, first impression reading of your modern North American (incorrectly informal at that) English sense of words into the KJV's 500 years old, Early Modern English sentence structures.

You do that, as does everyone who holds your view that I have read or talked to does.

While your question is based on your assumptions.

The internal evidence of Romans through Philemon points to the Romans having already known Paul's gospel before he even wrote Romans to them.

Your view is off.

Its every assertion appoints back to the exact first impression/ Acts read into Paul, etc., study methods of the 28ers.

Like it or not, get offended or not, you need to be Acts 17:11 about this.

I see a lot of what you think of Heir's opinion, but where is the evidence of what you think is right? Just a short and concise presentation would be nice. Like Heir does, for instance. :popcorn:
 

Danoh

New member
...I endevour to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. I'm confident that those to whom God foreknew would believe, did and will including the Romans (Romans 11:5 KJV, Romans 8:29-30 KJV) who were saved out of a remnant of Israel/out of the olive tree (of which they were already fat partakers, but that was coming down) and into the Body of Christ by the receiving of Paul's letter to them with his gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery!

You and yours have yet to prove the Romans were not in the Body before Paul wrote them.

Fact is that if Rom. 1:7’s “called (to be) saints” refers to their not having been in the Body before Paul wrote them, then verse 1’s “called (to be) an Apostle” means Paul was not yet in his Apostleship.

Verse 1’s and 7’s “called (to be)” is verse 1’s “separated unto” - which is the issue of that unto which a person, place or thing, has been declared separated unto.

Here, "called (to be)" simply refers to those which God is merely identifying as “beloved of God,” Luke 9:35; John 1: 31-32, 33-34.

As Paul has been called, or separated unto that unto which God has called him (made him an Apostle), the Romans are also; as to their respective calling (made saints). Among the nations they, as with Paul, are “also the called of Jesus Christ,” Rom. 1:6, “beloved of God, called (to be) saints,” Rom. 1:7.

Thus; why Paul can write unto them “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,” Rom. 1:7.

Note that the title “Lord Jesus Christ” is His title as to the saved, Acts 16:31; Acts 20:21; Rom. 5: 1, 11.

While, Romans 11: 5 refers; not to the Romans, but to the fact of the existence of Israel’s believing remnant, despite unbelieving Israel, Rom. 1:1-7.

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen,” Rom. 15:24.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Fact is that if Rom. 1:7’s “called (to be) saints” refers to their not having been in the Body before Paul wrote them, then verse 1’s “called (to be) an Apostle” means Paul was not yet in his Apostleship.
Good point.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Good point.

It seems that Paul is being pretty inclusive. Have "we" received grace and apostleship, for instance? Surely he isn't saying all those "called" are apostles.....

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help but notice the "all that be in Rome....called to be saints". And he's talking about preaching the Gospel, by whom all are called, are they not?

Romans 1:5-7
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​
 

Danoh

New member
It seems that Paul is being pretty inclusive. Have "we" received grace and apostleship, for instance? Surely he isn't saying all those "called" are apostles.....

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help but notice the "all that be in Rome....called to be saints". And he's talking about preaching the Gospel, by whom all are called, are they not?

Romans 1:5-7
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

The thing to do when attempting to get at the intended sense of some things is to examine their various components, separately.

Both passages refer to a "called" of some kind. Question is, what does "called" itself, refer to?

Throughout Scripture, it refers to a person, place or thing that has been separated unto some purpose.

In this, the words, holy, called, calling, the called, saints, the saints, separated unto, set apart, sanctified (which is where the word saint comes from) etc., all refer to a person, place, or thing which, within the scope, setting and context of Scripture, God has separated unto Himself as His.

The phrase "My sanctuary," for example, refers to that which God has separated unto Himself as His, and for Him.

It is related to the word "sanctified."

Where people are concerned they are referred to as "saints."
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The thing to do when attempting to get at the intended sense of some things is to examine their various components, separately.

Both passages refer to a "called" of some kind. Question is, what does "called" itself, refer to?

Throughout Scripture, it refers to a person, place or thing that has been separated unto some purpose.

In this, the words, holy, called, calling, the called, saints, the saints, separated unto, set apart, sanctified (which is where the word saint comes from) etc., all refer to a person, place, or thing which, within the scope, setting and context of Scripture, God has separated unto Himself as His.

The phrase "My sanctuary," for example, refers to that which God has separated unto Himself as His, and for Him.

It is related to the word "sanctified."

Where people are concerned they are referred to as "saints."

Yes, Danoh, I know that. But if Paul is coming to preach the Gospel....which, of itself, is a call, then that needs to be considered.
 

Danoh

New member
Yes, Danoh, I know that. But if Paul is coming to preach the Gospel....which, of itself, is a call, then that needs to be considered.

Acts 20:

17. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19. Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20. And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21. Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23. Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Of the various issues in the gospel of Christ, one is preaching to the lost.

Of equal importance is the issue of establishing, grounding, or building up the saved, in the details of The Faith, Col. 2:6-8.

This second issue is what Paul is referring to as to his wanting to be comforted together with them in the mutual faith.

He had not been able to experience that with them because he'd been hindered from being with them in their mutual faith (theirs and Paul's), Col. 2:1-2, for example, of many others.

Again, separate out the word comfort and its variations, and study them.

Do likewise with the word stablish, or establish - it is not the issue of putting anyone into the Body. Rather; it is the issue of edifying those in the Body in Body Truth.

It is the issue of teaching the saints, that they might then walk in what "ye have been taught," Eph. 4:21.

That they might "walk worthy of" said Body Truth "as followers of God, as dear children....as becometh saints" Eph. 5:1-3; Rom. 16:2, "as becometh holiness" (separated unto God), Titus 2:3.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Again, separate out the word comfort and its variations, and study them.

Do likewise with the word stablish, or establish - it is not the issue of putting anyone into the Body. Rather; it is the issue of edifying those in the Body in Body Truth.

I certainly understand how one can read a particular word a particular way....depending, of course, on how it's used in the text. To the "end" ...."you may be established", sounds like something that may come to be in the future as a result of Paul's preaching. You call it "edifying" because another verse uses it as such. What you need to do is study up on those places (of which there are many) it's used as "putting in place". Gen. 6:18

Romans 1:11
For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;​
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
I certainly understand how one can read a particular word a particular way....depending, of course, on how it's used in the text. To the "end" ...."you may be established", sounds like something that may come to be in the future as a result of Paul's preaching. You call it "edifying" because another verse uses it as such. What you need to do is study up on those places (of which there are many) it's used as "putting in place". Gen. 6:18

Romans 1:11
For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;​

Days of Glory :wave2:

We can know two things for sure:


1. The gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, is what establishes believers. Romans 16.

2. Paul desired to get to Rome to preach this gospel to them, to the end they may be established. Romans 1.


:e4e:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Days of Glory :wave2:

We can know two things for sure:


1. The gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, is what establishes believers. Romans 16.

2. Paul desired to get to Rome to preach this gospel to them, to the end they may be established. Romans 1.


:e4e:

:wave:

Hmmm...."Him that is of power to stablish you....."

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

Sure sounds like this to me. But, what do I know? :idunno:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​
 

Right Divider

Body part
same word

Mat 22:14 ForG1063 manyG4183 areG1526 called,G2822 butG1161 fewG3641 are chosen.G1588


Rom 1:6 AmongG1722 whomG3739 areG2075 yeG5210 alsoG2532 the calledG2822 of JesusG2424 Christ:G5547
Don't get into the mindset that words have the exact same meaning every time that they are used. That's just not true. This is not true in any language. A words meaning is ALWAYS determined by the context in which it is used and how it is used in that context.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Don't get into the mindset that words have the exact same meaning every time that they are used. That's just not true. This is not true in any language. A words meaning is ALWAYS determined by the context in which it is used and how it is used in that context.

all dose not always mean all

the word "run" has 179 definitions

called in these two verses are the same
 
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