Theology Club: Romans 11 Issues

[musterion]

There is no tree today and those who are saved aren't graffed in to anything, but baptized into the one Body by one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV).

That bears repeating again and again and again.

The only possible way someone can make the case that we (formerly) alienated heathens are being grafted in, is to show that Christ Himself is the olive tree of which Paul speaks. But even then it still won't work -- both natural and grafted limbs of a tree can be broken off, as Paul warns, but members of His Body can never be.

 

[Danoh]

That bears repeating again and again and again.

The only possible way someone can make the case that we (formerly) alienated heathens are being grafted in, is to show that Christ Himself is the olive tree of which Paul speaks. But even then it still won't work -- both natural and grafted limbs of a tree can be broken off, as Paul warns, but members of His Body can never be.

The need to solve for the problems Paul's Romans 11 analogy has posed many a mind over the centuries should not justify another error as its solution.

Fact is that Romans 11 is not about the Body, at the same time that it does not leave it out of what it is actually talking about where the Body is actually concerned.

I have been studying from a KJV for many years now, seeking out distinctions in light of the following:

The awareness that because the English of the KJV is 1611 Early Modern British English, to allow oneself to read one's 21st Century Modern, North American "English" into it cannot but result in misinterpretation at points, sooner or later.

And where such points are an important one, all that follows will end up off, but appear sound, due to the abscence of what was not considered and or, of what was brought in that actually has nothing to with the thing to begin with.

Some time ago, someone I was attempting to share the Mystery with rejected it with "I'm established in my faith."

Two days ago, I thought I'd ask him his sense of Romans 1: 11's "For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;"

I wondered if, since he had used its last word "established" in its actual sense - grounded - he might see that in this passage.

For though he had been off-base in his sense of what it is one is to be grounded in, he had been sound in his sense of what this word itself basically refers to - established; grounded in a thing; in its details.

Problem is, I had forgotten he is Pentecostal :chuckle:

So he reads the passage, and once more relates a sound sense of the word established...at the same time, however, that he proves he is off by two centuries as to what Paul is talking about there, as he begins to go on and on about how Paul had wanted to ground each of the Romans in an understanding of their respective gifts - tongues, healing, this, that, the other...

I'm sitting there thinking 'all that, just because you saw the phrase "spiritual gift" - sheesh...'

So I sat there, just taking it all in; fascinated by the mechanics of his error, of how such error comes about...

You reach a point with some where it becomes 'why bother anymore, might as well just learn about how error works, from observing theirs...'

You are then free to learn what to watch for that kind of a thing in yourself at least just a bit more, as to those same kinds of errors whenever you attempt to study a thing out.

In his case, I have given up because he is ever one for correcting others, but is never open to the words of another.

First thing out of his mouth whenever a thing is pointed out to him, is "that's not very edifying, we should try to get along," blah, blah, blah...

At this point, I have reached a point where I'm fine with that, where he is concerned, 1 Cor. 14:38.

 

[musterion]

Is Christ Himself the olive tree Paul speaks of being grafted into, from which grafted and natural limbs can be lopped off?

 

[Danoh]

Is Christ Himself the olive tree Paul speaks of being grafted into, from which grafted and natural limbs can be lopped off?

Two doors of faith on the table.

That is how confusing this issue can be.

This issue of access to an offer on the table that many confuse with what that offer itself is.

Behind door of faith number 1 (now on hold until the fulness of the Gentles be come in) when accessed, and that, by faith, is:

John 10's:

9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

There was/is Israel's door of faith (of access by faith).

There was that standing offer of access (if any many enter in) by faith.

And then one day - whoosh! - that door was suddenly, albeit, temporarily closed and a new door - a new, standing offer of access by faith, was opened, as related by its Apostle himself, from his headquarters at Antioch...

Acts 14:

27. And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Notice - he...opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

A door has been opened, a standing offer of access has been sent out to one and all. All they need do is believe.

Romans 9:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Note - he is not saying the Gentiles are automatically saved.

Rather; that they now have a standing offer of access by faith to... the righteousness which is of faith!

31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

But Israel, which also had a standing offer of access by faith to... the righteousness which is of faith... attained it not.

32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

See, that?

As with Israel's offer, when their offer was the offer on the table - there is this issue of a standing offer of access by faith, and there is the issue of accessing it - by faith - by believing.

There's was not automatic. The Gentiles is not either. And that is what the Romans 11 warning is about - that it will be cut off one day!

That is what this is - Romans 11:

20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Note verse 20 - because of unbelief they were broken off from access - it is no longer on the table. Paul's gospel is what is on the table now!

They were cut off from access to their offer - that was God's standing offer; when it was on the table; when their door of faith was open.

Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou Gentiles, you now stand by faith.

Now you Gentiles have a standing offer to an access, and it too is by faith.

Romans 5:

1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now, the Gentiles can be justified by faith, and by that have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can go from this standing offer of access by faith, to accessing it by faith, and as a result, stand before God now, justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, at peace with God.

He can now be our Lord!

No Lordship salvation here - that was Israel's standing offer!

There was the wonder of Deuteronomy 6's:

4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And it is through Jesus Christ that we have access by faith into this grace where we stand.

Those of us Gentiles who do not do with this offer what Israel did with theirs.

And when we access it by faith - a joy is made ours - the hope that is made ours that we Gentiles had been aliens to - we then have a hope - we have the glory of God as our God!!!

Bring out the party favors big time - no more do we belong to that group of "all have come short of the glory of God!"

Anyway, lets return back to Romans 11 - to what is this about the Gentiles (not the Body) continuing in His goodness: otherwise they shall be cut off?

22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Is not Paul saying that Israel will be offered another opportunity to their access?

Is he not saying that that will be at some point after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in?

Guess what? When the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, the Mystery's door of faith will be closed!

And with it; this standing offer of access by faith the Gentiles now have will be cut off!

Thus Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 6:

1. We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

And with the end of this day, things will head towards where they were in Romans 1:18 thru Romans 3:19 just before God stepped in with Romans 5: 20's "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"

With Romans 11:25, things will begin to head towards Romans 3's:

9. What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Towards 2 Thessalonians 2's:

11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Its fascinating this Mystery gap between things within Romans 1 thru 3...

 

[Tambora]

I'm still not seeing how you can say that the tree with branches being broken off and grafted in can ever be the BOC.
Branches are never broken off of the BOC.
And the story of the tree with branches clearly says that branches can be grafted in and broken off.

 

[Danoh]

I'm still not seeing how you can say that the tree with branches being broken off and grafted in can ever be the BOC.
Branches are never broken off of the BOC.
And the story of the tree with branches clearly says that branches can be grafted in and broken off.

Hey Tam, hope you're well.

I just love tough questions!

Question - when Israel's offer was set aside, were Israel's believing branches cut off the tree with the unbelieving ones?

Romans 11:

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

What did "he" seek for?

Matthew 8:

10. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note what Paul relates about two kinds of branches within the tree when Israel was the issue - Romans 9:

20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

In Israel's aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose, the unbelieving were "children of the kingdom;" they too were branches in the tree.

Matthew 22:

13. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14. For many are called, but few are chosen.

In both aspects of God's Two-Fold Purpose, the tree represents access to all (many are called), at the same time it ends up representing possession by the few (but few are chosen).

1 Corinthians 1:

21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

 

[heir]

In both aspects of God's Two-Fold Purpose, the tree represents access to all (many are called), at the same time it ends up representing possession by the few (but few are chosen).

1 Corinthians 1:

21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Oopsy. You've completely left us out!

During the Acts period Paul was sent to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16 KJV), the "them which are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV). He was not sent to all men. The people to whom Paul was sent during this provoking ministry in Acts were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Genesis 12:3 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). Paul preached the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) to them, which was before a mystery (Romans 16:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) as the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Danoh]

Oopsy. You've completely left us out!

During the Acts period Paul was sent to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16 KJV), the "them which are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV). He was not sent to all men. The people to whom Paul was sent during this provoking ministry in Acts were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Genesis 12:3 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). Paul preached the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) to them, which was before a mystery (Romans 16:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) as the power of God unto salvation.

Romans 1:

14. I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

A little history will reveal that as a result of a holdover from their past, Barbarians were what the Greeks referred to anyone not a Greek from back when Greece was the end all and be all under Alexander the Great.

And some Greeks referred to other Greeks as Barbarians - recall the movie 300 based on an actual battle. How the hoity toity Athenians viewed the Spartans as Barbarians for what was to the Athenians the Spartan's uncivilized manner.

The Romans also called others Barbarians.

While the Jews referred to anyone not a Jew as a Greek, also from back when the Greeks were the Gentle Power over the Jews.

In a sense, all were referring to those they considered "heathen."

And then there were the Grecians (Hellenized Jews). Jews considered by most as too Grecianized in some of their ways.

In short - Ωχ-a-μαργαρίτα (Ohg-ay-mar-gah-rita) Oops-a-daisy in Greek

 

[musterion]

I'm still not seeing how you can say that the tree with branches being broken off and grafted in can ever be the BOC.
Branches are never broken off of the BOC.
And the story of the tree with branches clearly says that branches can be grafted in and broken off.

Wait a minute, I asked the totally wrong question. The correct question that I should have asked is, "What (or who) would a natural limb of the Body of Christ even be?"

Answer: there IS NO natural limb to the BoC.

Since we all agree that both Jews and heathens are now granted free access into Him and are together made one NEW man via the Gospel of grace...and without that no one is His...then no one is His, or of Him, by nature. Only by grace.

But the tree did have limbs that belonged to it by nature.

That right there proves olive tree ≠ the BoC.

Stupid of me not to see that before, sorry.

 

[Tambora]

Wait a minute, I asked the totally wrong question. The correct question that I should have asked is, "What (or who) would a natural limb of the Body of Christ even be?"

Answer: there IS NO natural limb to the BoC.

Since we all agree that both Jews and heathens are now granted free access into Him and are together made one NEW man via the Gospel of grace...and without that no one is His...then no one is His, or of Him, by nature. Only by grace.

But the tree did have limbs that belonged to it by nature.

That right there proves olive tree ≠ the BoC.

Stupid of me not to see that before, sorry.

I think you and I are on the same page.
It is only the natural tree in which branches are grafted in and broken off.
And it clearly says that any branches that were broken off were because of unbelief, and none can be grafted in except by belief.
And then it says that the wild branches that were grafted in better not boast because they (the believing branches) too can be broken off.

Once you are in the BOC, you cannot be broken off.

I'll put it this way ...... Did Paul ever believe that he, or anyone else, could be broken off of the BOC?
Anyone that believes that, does not believe in OSAS for the BOC.

 

[musterion]

I'll put it this way ...... Did Paul ever believe that he, or anyone else, could be broken off of the BOC?

Nope. If it were possible, he'd surely have said so. Gal 5:4 is the closest I know of, but he assures us in Gal 5:10 that those to whom he spoke were indeed saved, and the ones TROUBLING them with such antichrist lies would pay for it (Meshak, et al).

Anyone that believes that, does not believe in OSAS for the BOC.

Yep. If Christ can't keep believers "in Him" despite our flesh, then no one is safe because we're all at risk. That means no one can dare claim to be saved, because you haven't been saved yet and can't know you will be.

Of course, that's exactly how the workers want it: it becomes a contest, not against Self by the power of the Spirit, but against other people's flesh to the glory of Self, with Christ on the sidelines, watching. They've turned it from a free gift of grace into a version of Survivor.

 

[glorydaz]

Nope. If it were possible, he'd surely have said so.



Yep. If Christ can't keep believers "in Him" despite our flesh, then no one is safe because we're all at risk. That means no one can dare claim to be saved, because you haven't been saved yet and can't know you will be.

Of course, that's exactly how the workers want it: it becomes a contest, not against Self by the power of the Spirit, but against other people's flesh to the glory of Self, with Christ on the sidelines, watching. They've turned it from a free gift of grace into a version of Survivor.

:thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

I think you and I are on the same page.
It is only the natural tree in which branches are grafted in and broken off.
And it clearly says that any branches that were broken off were because of unbelief, and none can be grafted in except by belief.
And then it says that the wild branches that were grafted in better not boast because they (the believing branches) too can be broken off.

Once you are in the BOC, you cannot be broken off.

I'll put it this way ...... Did Paul ever believe that he, or anyone else, could be broken off of the BOC?
Anyone that believes that, does not believe in OSAS for the BOC.

Amen....so good to have you back, sister. :thumb:

 

[Right Divider]

That bears repeating again and again and again.

Da Bears!

 

[musterion]

Da Bears!

Dis year, you watch!

 

[Danoh]

Wait a minute, I asked the totally wrong question. The correct question that I should have asked is, "What (or who) would a natural limb of the Body of Christ even be?"

Answer: there IS NO natural limb to the BoC.

Since we all agree that both Jews and heathens are now granted free access into Him and are together made one NEW man via the Gospel of grace...and without that no one is His...then no one is His, or of Him, by nature. Only by grace.

But the tree did have limbs that belonged to it by nature.

That right there proves olive tree ≠ the BoC.

Stupid of me not to see that before, sorry.

Not stupid, just part of the process of attempting to sort a thing out.

And the process itself is often fraught with what only appears a sound turn in the road.

Prior to Paul the sense of "by nature" had also not referred to the physical seed of Abraham, as the issue is a spiritual one Dispensationally.

The issue is who has access and how did they get that access?

And the issue is who of those who had access received it, welcomed it, how did they, and who did not, and how did they not?

The natural branches refers to those who have access.

But access to a thing, and possession of it are not the same thing.

The natural branches were those who had access, and some were cut off - for, at one point, both had had access.

Consider from that, the following.

2 Corinthians 5:

19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In the above, who are now the natural branches; who now has access to faith, and what is that faith?

Who made that door of faith possible?

We end up with two branches once more - both with access to faith.

"All the world" has been grafted in; all now have direct access.

Some will receive it, others will not, and be cut off from said access when it is cut off with the fulness of the Gentiles.

Romans 9 thru 11 depend on a proper understanding of Romans 1 thru 3.

Romans 1 thru 3 are a history of how the Gentile lost direct access, followed by how the Jew also lost their direct access.

It then ends with the good news that all now have been made nigh.

Read a different understanding into Romans 1 thru 3, and you end with a different understanding of the intended sense of Romans 9 thru 11, as well.

 

[Right Divider]

Dis year, you watch!

I am... and I'm not too happy.... Go Cubs!

 

[patrick jane]

I am... and I'm not too happy.... Go Cubs!

View attachment 20475

 

[heir]

Not stupid, just part of the process of attempting to sort a thing out.

And the process itself is often fraught with what only appears a sound turn in the road.

Prior to Paul the sense of "by nature" had also not referred to the physical seed of Abraham, as the issue is a spiritual one Dispensationally.

The issue is who has access and how did they get that access?

And the issue is who of those who had access received it, welcomed it, how did they, and who did not, and how did they not?

The natural branches refers to those who have access.

But access to a thing, and possession of it are not the same thing.

The natural branches were those who had access, and some were cut off - for, at one point, both had had access.

Consider from that, the following.

2 Corinthians 5:

19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In the above, who are now the natural branches; who now has access to faith, and what is that faith?

Who made that door of faith possible?

We end up with two branches once more - both with access to faith.

"All the world" has been grafted in; all now have direct access.

Some will receive it, others will not, and be cut off from said access when it is cut off with the fulness of the Gentiles.

Romans 9 thru 11 depend on a proper understanding of Romans 1 thru 3.

Romans 1 thru 3 are a history of how the Gentile lost direct access, followed by how the Jew also lost their direct access.

It then ends with the good news that all now have been made nigh.

Read a different understanding into Romans 1 thru 3, and you end with a different understanding of the intended sense of Romans 9 thru 11, as well.

There's no tree or branches in sight in 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV! In fact, what did the Gentiles like the Romans have to do to have already been graffed in to the olive tree prior to the writing of Paul's letter to them?

 

[Danoh]

There's no tree or branches in sight in 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV! In fact, what did the Gentiles like the Romans have to do to have already been graffed in to the olive tree prior to the writing of Paul's letter to them?

That first assertion is your assertion, based on your obvious, first impression reading of your modern North American (incorrectly informal at that) English sense of words into the KJV's 500 years old, Early Modern English sentence structures.

You do that, as does everyone who holds your view that I have read or talked to does.

While your question is based on your assumptions.

The internal evidence of Romans through Philemon points to the Romans having already known Paul's gospel before he even wrote Romans to them.

Your view is off.

Its every assertion appoints back to the exact first impression/ Acts read into Paul, etc., study methods of the 28ers.

Like it or not, get offended or not, you need to be Acts 17:11 about this.