REPORT: Nicer Than God - By Bob Enyart
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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CRASH
TOL Subscriber
Why? Have you repented and stopped molesting children?
And these are your fruits are they CRASH? Not only do you not acknowledge that you were in the extreme wrong with such a comment you actually persist in it, you really are rather pathetic....
Funny, I don't really put much creedence to someone who 'rebukes' after calling folk molestors, I can't possibly think why....
:rotfl:
Man, you will do anything to try and justify and keep hold of your ad homs won't you? Jesus didn't call ANYONE names with no purpose - unlike you who thinks it's christian to lie and act like a kid, you're 44 aren't you? I'd never have guessed by your posts......
It's not an ad hom to point out that lieing and ad homming constitutes immaturity and basically acting like little kids....
PKevman
New member
PKevman
New member
Red77 said:
This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult and frustrating to discuss anything with you. Because one has to go back constantly and repeat what was said. I know you have answered the question straight up Red. Your initial response was that I had made a "Hitler" straw-man. First off, remember that Nick asked if we should say nice things about Hitler, which I replied that folks like you believe we will be fellowshiping with Hitler for all eternity so we might as well get used to it. You said that was a straw man. I said how is it a straw man if this is what you believe. Then you confirmed it was in fact what you believe, which PROVES it was not a straw man in the least. At this point of the discussion the whole thing would go away easily for you if you would practice honesty and say, "Yes I believe it, and it is not a straw man. We will be fellowshiping with Hitler for all eternity." Instead you persist in debating something that you have already defeated yourself on. That is sheer lunacy Red. Swallow up some pride and realize it's over. My statement was a statement of fact that summarized what you believe.
Red77 said:
Exactly. But you are not willing to condemn him for it. Your judgments are thus proven to be "Nicer than God". God will cast Adolf Hitler into the Lake of Fire where he will rot for all eternity without hope, and I say Hallelujah for that!
No, you are morally bankrupt because you are morally bankrupt. Your positions on the Lake of Fire, Hitler, homosexuality, child molestors, etc... are the direct result of you being morally and spiritually bankrupt.
I don't dispute that Jesus died for all, including Hitler. God says that only those who believe and humble themselves before Him will receive the benefits of that sacrifice. That's His rules, and it's HIS prerogative to make the rules as far as to who gets into Heaven, not YOURS!
Once again, this tired old phrase of yours has been shown repeatedly to be the actual strawman. Have I ever said God wasn't 100% successful in His mission? The problem has nothing to do with God. The problem lies with unrepentant, unregenerate, sinful beings who refuse to submit to God and depart from this life. The Scriptures are plain that they "Die in their sins".
Jesus said very plainly: John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Red77 said:
Sure it does. To allow an unrepentant sinner like Hitler or ANYONE into Heaven would be to destroy Heaven just as the world is currently destroyed by sin. God says He won't let that happen. You say otherwise. We'll stick with God. This is why you are "Nicer than God". (You're not actually, you're just trying to be)
There was nothing to address. You still whine over an analogy I made a while back ago, and at the time you completely missed the whole point I was making. You still don't get it, and until you repent, turn your heart over to Christ, and stop living for yourself you WON'T get it.
If there is something that was discussed in the Battle Royale that you think you could have addressed better than Logos_x did, why don't you go to the Battle Talk thread and expose it. I'll be more than glad to discuss it there. This is not the place for that discussion. This is about how you are "Nicer than God". It's funny that the BR XII battle talk thread degenerated into a discussion that had little to do with the actual battle itself, but now you want to bring up issues here as if I hadn't said repeatedly in the B.T. thread that the thread was meant to be discussing the BR. This is just another sleight of hand attempt by you to steer this discussion away from your "Nicer than God" attitude. You cannot run and you cannot hide. The truth will always find you, Red.
There has been no backpedaling or refusing to answer the question. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. All will pay the penalty for their own sins. That penalty has been decreed by God and cannot be revoked. This is what is known as the second death.
God makes the contrast clear: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power" (Rev 20:6)
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)
If you stop and think about it, those very words condemn us all. For who among us has never told a lie? This is why it is such wonderful news that while "The wages of sin is death," as the Scritpures say in Romans 6:23, it goes on to say: "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
What a hokie load of nonsense. Universalism is so difficult to defend because it is unBiblical, that when someone who has the opportunity to defend it on a grand stage gets that opportunity, they spend half of the time copying and pasting the writings of other Universalists. I said little about this in the Battle, because Stephen did the right thing and admitted he was wrong in doing that. The sad thing is that he and you, (and anyone else) would depend so heavily on the writings and teachings of Universalists to base your views on. Sure TOL is biased, but don't blame TOL that the debate was lost. Blame the faulty Universalist theology which is the real culprit!
It is crystal clear. "Tormented day and night forever and ever". Doesn't get any clearer than that. You are not debating the issue with anyone else right now. You're debating me. Why use other people's positions to try to win an argument? :ha:
And once again you missed (or failed to address) the point I was making. People who believe the Lake of Fire is eternal and that there is no return all agree on that point. The real issue is separation from God. In the end separation from God and His glory is the worst punishment of all. Worse even then the flames of torment.
The issues have little to do with interpretation. I am a literal Biblicist. I take the Bible as God's Word, and I take God at His Word. God says homosexuality is wicked and evil. I believe Him. God says those whose names aren't in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. I believe Him. Scripture never shows them getting out, and teaches that the 2nd Death is final. You refute God's Word and make up your own cushy theology because you think it is unfair. Thus you are the very essense of "Nicer than God".
Red77 said:
Ok let's talk throught his. First of all, I am sorry about your sister. What a tragedy. However, by fighting against the death penalty for rape (whatever your reasons may be), you are emboldening rapists to rape. If we had a swift death penalty for rapists, the chances of your sister's tragedy occurring would have been greatly reduced. I agree completely that our judicial system is a mess. And forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't you live in a completely different country?So we aren't really talking about the same judicial system.
All that being said, the DP is a deterrent to viloent crimes. That is why God set it up. That is why man should not have repealed it. That is a major factor as to why our society is in the shape that it's in today. (Violent crime is rampant)
No. It is not wicked and unChristian. In fact, Jesus used the same tactics at times as I already showed you. If Jesus did it, is it unChristian?
Oh cool. You FINALLY bought a mirror. Congratulations!
Why do you stay here then? Trust me, I know a lot of people that would completely support you scooting on out of here. :think:
They are the perfect example of self-righteous pride gone wild. It was that piousness that Jesus repeatedly confronted. It is that same attitude that we confront all the time when we stand up for the truth.
Exactly. Self-righteousness.
I will not turn this thread into another debate on that subject. You already have others going on about it. You often excuse adultery and sexual immorality and you repeatedly use this as your reasoning. It is faulty reasoning at best.
That is because you have crafted a nice little way out, and if shown quotes where Jesus is being confrontational, you will say it is not a "throwaway remark". STILL, I will answer your challenge:
Were His own disciples in authority or power?
Yet He repeatedly insulted and spoke harshly to them throughout the Gospels. Do you want to concede now, or do you want to go read the Gospels to verify it? My guess is that you won't concede because you never concede anything. I hope I'm wrong.
Red77 said:
No I'm sorry you didn't answer at all. Not really. You dodged. Did Jesus call them dogs or not? Were they REALLY dirty filthy animals or not? :think:
Oh good grief, the strawman is using an example such as Hitler to attempt to justify eternal suffering which is on your doorstep - not mine, as has been amply pointed out, I suggest you swallow your own pride and just admit that analogies such as this don't work with the premise of your own belief when all it takes to get baked for eternity is unbelief...
Why do you say Hallelujah? Would you say it for anyone who is cast into your literal lake of fire whose crimes against humanity would effectively amount to a parking ticket in comparison? And why do you I think I don't condemn Hitler's actions? What he and the nazi regime did was pure atrocity, now- if you are saying hallelujah for hitler being cast into the lake of fire because of the atrocitites he was responsible for and not just for unbelief are you not guilty of the strawman of using an obvious example of evil to again justify ET? Or will you equally celebrate the eternal suffering of the average person who hasn't committed such heinous crimes against humanity? :think:
Oh puh - leese, you're starting to shift the goalposts here pastor, originally I was 'morally bankrupt' because I didn't believe that Hitler would spend eternity in suffering, now it's suddenly changed to my 'position' on the lake of fire?? What - I'm immoral for happening to believe that it isn't actually a physical lake of non ending burning suffering? I'm immoral for not believeing that billions of people will suffer excruciating pain of one sort or another for all eternity? Wow.....how heartless I must be....
And what on earth is this about child molesting? Was I not clear enough in my last post with my stance on that?
Oh - that's right, you presumed that because I thought cruelty to animals was wrong it automatically made me a vegetarian liberal and i would invite a child molestor to some sort of salad and give him a pep talk.......
I noticed you had nothing to say to your own false presumptions about me and yet you persist in this rubbish, again - buy a clue......
I don't disagree, every knee will bow and every tongue confess......
Well yes, if Jesus died for the world then I believe he can save the whole of it, not just 10 - 20% as what most ET'ers seem to believe, 'dieing' in sins doesnt translate to an eternity of pointless suffering, I also believe that God had already taken into account man's fallibility when Jesus answered the disciple's question of who would actually be saved......
Well, who said anything about letting sin into heaven anyway? I didn't.....
The point was that it was a strawman and you would be better off just admitting that it was a mistake, you are far from the only one to have attempted to use such examples of Hitler, Stalin, 9/11 in a flawed attempt to make an emotional attempt to justify ET because of the obvious rebuttal of the victims of such oppression recieving the same torment.....
my mistake, it was actually the battle talk thread where this took place, and the truth finds everybody including both me and you
Yes there was and it's about time you just accept that it's a flawed analogy to use extreme examples of evil to attempt to justify ET, your own theology blows it apart without any real effort needed to rebut it....
and....?
Yes, the difference is that I believe that the lake of fire is metaphorical and has a constructive purpose, you do not, it also says they have their part in the lake of fire...
I don't disagree, none of us are perfect and we've all sinned in some form or another, thats why it makes no sense for ET'ers to use 9/11 as examples of why people should deserve to be eternally tormented.....and notice the word 'gift', gifts do not come with "strings attached" otherwise they are not gifts....
Of course it's not nonsense, I think you're being disingenuous to say otherwise, I had no misconceptions of the ET argument having "victory" on such a site and neither did plenty of other people on here, and yes, Stephen was gracious in his apology for the pastes but to make out that there wasn't already a great deal of logical, biblical and moral support for his position is nothing more than a cheap shot to keep bringing up, the debate was not 'lost' no matter how much you may want to shout that it was......
I've debated this particular passage with you before anyway....do we have to do it again?
You are the one who is failing to address the point, for something as crucial as the concept of eternal torment WHY is it not crystal clear as to just what it is and what will happen, why the ambiguous and differing interpretations? Would God not make this crystal clear in the word so that all of those who preach it would be in absolute agreement?
You are a Biblical literalist when it suits you to be, Tim 4:10 you choose to not take literally at all along with many other verses where they have to be 'taken in context'.......my position has got nothing to do with being 'nicer than God', God is LOVE, that is pretty much enough said......
I appreciate you being sorry for my sister, thankfully it was several years ago and she is now married and with a couple of lovely kids,
However, it would seem to be as well to just agree to disgaree with the rest, our judicial systems (both in the UK and America) are FAR too faulty to justify the DP as far as I'm concerned, several christians I know are on both sides of the argument on this one....
So.....it is not unchristian to call another person a child molestor with no foundation is it?
The fact is that Jesus never did call anyone a name without any reason or foundation, this is absolute double standards, if a pagan/agnostic or whatever called a christian the same then why is it that I reckon you'd be in absolute uproar? Isn't it actually being honest to admit that it's pathetic and wrong no matter who says something like that?
Oh cool. You FINALLY bought a mirror. Congratulations!
Um.....
Because I enjoy this site, I don't just visit here to be involved in debating battles but for several other reasons as well, I've met some great people on here for a start, why do you feel the need to constantly tell people that if they don't like a certain aspect that they should leave? No-one seems to do this to you......
Yes, they thought they knew it all, placed legalism above compassion and abused their authority over the people....
Yes, they were cold hearted and full of bile....
I do not excuse adultery or sexual immorality so please drop that particular strawman, just because i do not believe that stoning people to death for having had an affair or whatever does not mean i condone it, surely you are intelligent enough to be aware of that? The fact is that the crowd on that day were convicted by their conscience after Jesus words......
How have I crafted a 'way out'? All you have to do is to supply one verse that shows Jesus calling an average member of the public a moron/idiot or something similar with no reasoning attached to it, it is you who are trying to craft a way out if you cannot supply one.....
How on earth did I dodge? I don't deny that Jesus called them the very same thing along with several others, the point is that it was for a reason as has already been explained earlier in my own response......
Answering you is so soul destroying Red. I'm going to answer for PK so he doesn't have to. Eventually nobody is going to respond to you at all.
Using Hitler in an analogy is only necessary because you reject what the Word of God says. God's word says that people who do not accept Christ will spend an eternity separated from Him. You reject that and the obvious end of what you believe is that you will be spending eternity with Hitler. We don't use Hitler to justify eternal torment. We use God's word.
People aren't thrown into hell because of what they do. People are thrown into hell for rejecting their creator. Again, it comes from the bible, you'll probably reject this. We celebrate good judgement from God because that is a fundamental basis for our faith.
That's true. You want to believe that people will live next to their rapists for eternity.
You're probably lying. You're good at that.
Of course they will all do so. Then most of them will be thrown into hell.
This was answered satisfactorily by PK. You've chosen to ignore his words. God can save the whole world. Jesus did come to save the whole world, but only those that believe and have faith in Christ will be saved.
Yeah, you did. You think people who say on Earth that they will reject God when they die and find out he is real will get into heaven. why would God let them into heaven?
We do not use these examples to justify the reality of hell. We use the bible. We use these examples because you reject the word of God.
The fact that the Death Penalty is not practiced is the very reason why judgement has lost its reputation. If criminals were being executed then those with the say-so would be far more likely to try and get things right. If you agree that murderers and adulterers should get the death penalty given a righteous judicial system then your only objection, that the judicial system is too screwed up, is just a case of you being afraid of the pain involved in doing what is right.
It seems you alone have access to that information.
When you fail to convict you succeed in supporting. Calling you a homo is a simple case of saying you love homos. Calling you a child molester is simply saying you don't want such perverts executed. You don't like it, but it's perfectly reasonable.
No offence Stipe but I actually want PK to address the points here, your last little segment says it all, you think calling me a child molestor is acceptable and I'm fed up of your immaturity, I've forgiven you for something extremely nasty and which you yourself were convicted of, so lets just be able to be honest and say that calling people child molestors who don't molest children is wrong, please don't get in the way of an answer that I hope the pastor will give
cheers.....
PKevman
New member
Actually I agree with Stipe's assessment. Talking with you is like talking to a wall. You ignore the vast majority of what is said for you and persist in arguing against positions and statements that aren't even made, or you twist and contort them around.
Here is the bottom line: you were invited to see this thread and read the article by Bob because someone who wasn't me recognized that you have this same "Nicer than God" attitude. I didn't invite you here, but I understand why you WERE invited here, and I tried to reach out to you.
I also did not bring up Hitler in the doggone conversation, I just added to what someone else had already said. Your repeated hardheaded refusal to actually discuss points and issues brought up against your position make it difficult to discuss anything with you. Then you bound all over this website posting half-truths about things that were stated in threads, and you bend it around in so many threads that nobody could keep up with all of them. I have tried very dilligently and patiently to win you to the truth, but you reject the truth. I am at a point where it will not do any good to drag it further. When you get around to wanting to discuss the issue openly and honestly you can PM me, and I'd be glad to talk with you.