Why isn't heaven metaphorical?
Anyway, God lived with them in their presence. How much closer can you get than that? How much closer were His angels?
I reckon it actually is, 'the kingdom of heaven is from within', I don't believe Heaven to be an actual physical place in our current sense either
I don't see it as any more or less absurd than Israel OT and NT.
So, according to your presumably literal take on this you can't see how much more absurd it is that a being would suddenly become unhinged enough to think it could take on a deity that could crush him without a seconds thought? Seriously? How can you compare this to human beings with all their weaknesses and foibles who lived in Israel?
Sure I do. It's outside of God's Kingdom. Where the folks who don't want to be with God will be. Or as Jesus described it, outside the city where the garbage is dumped.
No you don't....you're just saying where it isn't - not what it is....and just who do you think would rather be in the ET'ers realm of the lake rather than with God once they had been brought to a knowledge of the truth?
As I said, no matter what I said on the issue, you would either ignore/misunderstand/twist. You chose ignore. So much for my valid claim being called a "petty cheap shot". Anyway, it rebuts your numerology argument, whether you accept it or not.
I didn't ignore, I disagreed and offered a counter argument that's all,
What is wrong with Jew, Christian and pagan? Do you not know to whom I refer with those terms?
Jews, well Jews obviously....
Christians - people who believe the same as you do....
Pagans - anyone who doesn't believe and isn't a jew....?
Oh! Look, you made a distinction between a pagan and a Christian! "plenty of people who are christians have been agnostics beforehand." You know there is a difference. So does God. He defines the difference.
It's the fact that you lump up all people (except Jews apparently although what exactly would you call a Jewish agnostic) as pagans no matter where they come from, how 'paganistic' in it's literal term they are and I fail to see the need to dehumanise people to that extent, my saying that several christians used to be agnostics was not meant to put people into brackets but merely to say that paganism itself is largely irrelevant, a christian is just as much of a human being as an agnostic/atheist or whatever at the end of the day......
.True. Some come to the question, "Will you follow Me?" and say, "No." so many times their conscience becomes seared and their hearts hard. It's more difficult to reach these folks, but it can happen. Where there is life, there is hope
What has a 'hard heart' to do with this? My parents detested the doctrine of eternal hell because of their compassion and are more turned away from belief because of it - not because they don't wish to believe in a creator
I can only affect freewill if the agent allows it to. A Christ follower has the opportunity to take any form of temptation straight to God. The more they exercise their faith, the stronger it gets. On the other hand, some actually seek out demons. In this age they are likely to be called "spirit guides" and the like, and most who seek them out are more than happy to follow along. Sometimes they are called "angels" and there are books out there that teach how to contact and talk to these beings.
Freewill is affected by so many things, environment, circumstance etc
He has not been bound yet, but he will be. At that time he will be shut up and not allowed to deceive folks for 1000 years. Rev 20
Presumably you take this literally, I don't, if he's a literal beast then how can he use mental influence to tempt every person alive as it is now? It's metaphor, look at the chapter it's written in.....
He influenced Joseph. I thought that would be apparent.
What exactly do you think that angels are? Humanoid supernatural beings?
Which ones? Just the "bad" ones? The ones who used their freewill to act against God like freewill humans do? By what measure do you judge the metaphorical from the actual?
Usually in the context of whats been written, I wouldnt say I'm right about every occurrence but then again considering the amount of differing views on these matters I doubt any human being actually is....I just find it patently absurd to think that one being would rebel against a creator where there was no chance of winning never mind more.....
So far you have claimed quite a good deal of the Bible is metaphorical. Good council uses verse in context to prove a point. They don't have to lapse into metaphor to push away what doesn't agree.
Do you claim that a good deal of the bible isn't metaphorical? 'Good council' seems like a very subjective term to try and make literal sense out of something that is blatantly symbolic as in the case of death being 'literally' thrown into a lake of physical fire for example, your argument also backfires when it comes to verses where there is no argument from either side as to the literal nature of such, Tim 4:10 isn't metaphorical and yet it's twisted around so much from those who will insist that much of revelation is to be taken literally!
And if both wanted to invest their time and effort, it would be awsome to watch two strong Christian men hash out a difference. But as to why, it is the same reason you and I disagree. We are human. The difference between us is I take God for what he says in context. That is why I was not convinced of your position on the Lake. I had to read far too much into a handful of passages, and that was not enough to erase what we find in the Bible.
Yes, we are human, and as such we are prone to human weakness and will be throughout the remainder of our lives, if you're not convinced by my position on the lake then fair enough although it's more than a 'handful' of passages.....the same with Knight and PK, it's a difference that they not only share among themselves but many others who would disagree with them both, I cannot proove my belief to be correct but I do know that it has more hope,love and positivity than anything ET does which effectively brings the opposite, it makes no sense on any level....
Your lens is set on ages, the evidence isn't. If you believe He could have created everything in a nanosecond, why do you believe it took ages?
The evidence points to this world being a lot older than 6000 years, whats more I have no problem believing that.....recall that passage saying that a day can be like a thousand years and a thousand years as a day?
God could have ____________ (fill in the blank), I agree. The difference is, He said He did it a different way. Not just once, but again in the Law. He thought it was that important.
You didn't answer the question though. Why do you take one as a metaphor but the other you do not? It appears the 10 commandments must be partly metaphor for you. And in this light, what does God repeating his 6 days of work mean if it means something other than His literal 6 days of work?
No, I don't really see the 10 commandments as metaphor at all, i just don't take the account of genesis literally....
The whole OT pointed to Christ. The folks who knew the Books the best rejected Him outright. They saw Him. They saw His miracles. And they hated Him. He was their own come to give them their Kingdom just as He promised, and they rejected Him.
The point is they saw a man do these things, they were just human beings prone to the same weaknesses as you and I, do you think they would have reacted the same way if they saw God incarnate?
Then you need give the freewill agent the freedom to reject God if you believe he will not use force. It's odd you don't believe God will force anyone, but that satan must.
I don't recall saying that I believe that even a literal satan would use force....I don't believe that God would have to force anyone because once everyone is brought to a knowledge of the truth they wouldn't have to be anyway.....
I have sen no evidence in the Bible that repeals the Law. Paul points out that the governing authorities are to mete out justice. Same OT same NT.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus
Misusing that one instance isn't going to prove your case. Especially when Paul makes it clear the government is to strike fear in the hearts of evil doers.
You have still not answered the question here, did Jesus do away with an eye for an eye or not? And I also have no problem with the government using stern measures to counteract crime, but saying that I am 'misusing' an example is hollow unless you are going to back up just why that is, there is plenty in mosaic law that isn't followed today and perhaps you can actually just explain which particular laws aren't relevant now and just why that is?
What is a sword for? The government does not bear it in vain, according to Paul. "...for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."
Paul didn't say any of that though did he? Nor did God tell that to Noah. What God has said both OT and NT is put murderers to death. What has changed between Noah and now? Paul and now?
Again, what has this passage to do with the death penalty? It doesn't mention it literally does it? And justice demands that innocent people aren't sent to their wrongful deaths as would inevitably happen under our present inept systems, if you cannot see the obviousness of that after the amount of links that have been provided for both the UK and the US stats then I fail to see the point in even continuing this part of the debate....
sorry for the delayed reply but it is often quite circular when we debate and I'm not exactly enthusiastic for that to continue, I'm all for honest debate but I need some kind of constructive point to it, if we can both admit that we're humans and not always gonna be right no matter how ardently we may feel then that would be a start perhaps