REPORT: Nicer Than God - By Bob Enyart

red77

New member
Why isn't heaven metaphorical?

Anyway, God lived with them in their presence. How much closer can you get than that? How much closer were His angels?

I reckon it actually is, 'the kingdom of heaven is from within', I don't believe Heaven to be an actual physical place in our current sense either

I don't see it as any more or less absurd than Israel OT and NT.

So, according to your presumably literal take on this you can't see how much more absurd it is that a being would suddenly become unhinged enough to think it could take on a deity that could crush him without a seconds thought? Seriously? How can you compare this to human beings with all their weaknesses and foibles who lived in Israel? :confused:

Sure I do. It's outside of God's Kingdom. Where the folks who don't want to be with God will be. Or as Jesus described it, outside the city where the garbage is dumped.

No you don't....you're just saying where it isn't - not what it is....and just who do you think would rather be in the ET'ers realm of the lake rather than with God once they had been brought to a knowledge of the truth?

As I said, no matter what I said on the issue, you would either ignore/misunderstand/twist. You chose ignore. So much for my valid claim being called a "petty cheap shot". Anyway, it rebuts your numerology argument, whether you accept it or not.

I didn't ignore, I disagreed and offered a counter argument that's all,

What is wrong with Jew, Christian and pagan? Do you not know to whom I refer with those terms?

Jews, well Jews obviously....
Christians - people who believe the same as you do.... ;)
Pagans - anyone who doesn't believe and isn't a jew....?


Oh! Look, you made a distinction between a pagan and a Christian! "plenty of people who are christians have been agnostics beforehand." You know there is a difference. So does God. He defines the difference.

It's the fact that you lump up all people (except Jews apparently although what exactly would you call a Jewish agnostic) as pagans no matter where they come from, how 'paganistic' in it's literal term they are and I fail to see the need to dehumanise people to that extent, my saying that several christians used to be agnostics was not meant to put people into brackets but merely to say that paganism itself is largely irrelevant, a christian is just as much of a human being as an agnostic/atheist or whatever at the end of the day......

True. Some come to the question, "Will you follow Me?" and say, "No." so many times their conscience becomes seared and their hearts hard. It's more difficult to reach these folks, but it can happen. Where there is life, there is hope
.

What has a 'hard heart' to do with this? My parents detested the doctrine of eternal hell because of their compassion and are more turned away from belief because of it - not because they don't wish to believe in a creator

I can only affect freewill if the agent allows it to. A Christ follower has the opportunity to take any form of temptation straight to God. The more they exercise their faith, the stronger it gets. On the other hand, some actually seek out demons. In this age they are likely to be called "spirit guides" and the like, and most who seek them out are more than happy to follow along. Sometimes they are called "angels" and there are books out there that teach how to contact and talk to these beings.

Freewill is affected by so many things, environment, circumstance etc

He has not been bound yet, but he will be. At that time he will be shut up and not allowed to deceive folks for 1000 years. Rev 20

Presumably you take this literally, I don't, if he's a literal beast then how can he use mental influence to tempt every person alive as it is now? It's metaphor, look at the chapter it's written in..... ;)

He influenced Joseph. I thought that would be apparent.

What exactly do you think that angels are? Humanoid supernatural beings?

Which ones? Just the "bad" ones? The ones who used their freewill to act against God like freewill humans do? By what measure do you judge the metaphorical from the actual?

Usually in the context of whats been written, I wouldnt say I'm right about every occurrence but then again considering the amount of differing views on these matters I doubt any human being actually is....I just find it patently absurd to think that one being would rebel against a creator where there was no chance of winning never mind more.....

So far you have claimed quite a good deal of the Bible is metaphorical. Good council uses verse in context to prove a point. They don't have to lapse into metaphor to push away what doesn't agree.

Do you claim that a good deal of the bible isn't metaphorical? 'Good council' seems like a very subjective term to try and make literal sense out of something that is blatantly symbolic as in the case of death being 'literally' thrown into a lake of physical fire for example, your argument also backfires when it comes to verses where there is no argument from either side as to the literal nature of such, Tim 4:10 isn't metaphorical and yet it's twisted around so much from those who will insist that much of revelation is to be taken literally!

And if both wanted to invest their time and effort, it would be awsome to watch two strong Christian men hash out a difference. But as to why, it is the same reason you and I disagree. We are human. The difference between us is I take God for what he says in context. That is why I was not convinced of your position on the Lake. I had to read far too much into a handful of passages, and that was not enough to erase what we find in the Bible.

Yes, we are human, and as such we are prone to human weakness and will be throughout the remainder of our lives, if you're not convinced by my position on the lake then fair enough although it's more than a 'handful' of passages.....the same with Knight and PK, it's a difference that they not only share among themselves but many others who would disagree with them both, I cannot proove my belief to be correct but I do know that it has more hope,love and positivity than anything ET does which effectively brings the opposite, it makes no sense on any level....

Your lens is set on ages, the evidence isn't. If you believe He could have created everything in a nanosecond, why do you believe it took ages?

The evidence points to this world being a lot older than 6000 years, whats more I have no problem believing that.....recall that passage saying that a day can be like a thousand years and a thousand years as a day?

God could have ____________ (fill in the blank), I agree. The difference is, He said He did it a different way. Not just once, but again in the Law. He thought it was that important.

You didn't answer the question though. Why do you take one as a metaphor but the other you do not? It appears the 10 commandments must be partly metaphor for you. And in this light, what does God repeating his 6 days of work mean if it means something other than His literal 6 days of work?

No, I don't really see the 10 commandments as metaphor at all, i just don't take the account of genesis literally....

The whole OT pointed to Christ. The folks who knew the Books the best rejected Him outright. They saw Him. They saw His miracles. And they hated Him. He was their own come to give them their Kingdom just as He promised, and they rejected Him.

The point is they saw a man do these things, they were just human beings prone to the same weaknesses as you and I, do you think they would have reacted the same way if they saw God incarnate?

Then you need give the freewill agent the freedom to reject God if you believe he will not use force. It's odd you don't believe God will force anyone, but that satan must.

I don't recall saying that I believe that even a literal satan would use force....I don't believe that God would have to force anyone because once everyone is brought to a knowledge of the truth they wouldn't have to be anyway.....

I have sen no evidence in the Bible that repeals the Law. Paul points out that the governing authorities are to mete out justice. Same OT same NT.



"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Jesus

Misusing that one instance isn't going to prove your case. Especially when Paul makes it clear the government is to strike fear in the hearts of evil doers.

You have still not answered the question here, did Jesus do away with an eye for an eye or not? And I also have no problem with the government using stern measures to counteract crime, but saying that I am 'misusing' an example is hollow unless you are going to back up just why that is, there is plenty in mosaic law that isn't followed today and perhaps you can actually just explain which particular laws aren't relevant now and just why that is?

What is a sword for? The government does not bear it in vain, according to Paul. "...for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."


Paul didn't say any of that though did he? Nor did God tell that to Noah. What God has said both OT and NT is put murderers to death. What has changed between Noah and now? Paul and now?


Again, what has this passage to do with the death penalty? It doesn't mention it literally does it? And justice demands that innocent people aren't sent to their wrongful deaths as would inevitably happen under our present inept systems, if you cannot see the obviousness of that after the amount of links that have been provided for both the UK and the US stats then I fail to see the point in even continuing this part of the debate....

sorry for the delayed reply but it is often quite circular when we debate and I'm not exactly enthusiastic for that to continue, I'm all for honest debate but I need some kind of constructive point to it, if we can both admit that we're humans and not always gonna be right no matter how ardently we may feel then that would be a start perhaps
 

csuguy

New member
peh* Churches today ****!!! They can't put on all the fake smiles they want, they can be politically correct as they want - but they've lost their potency.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
I reckon it actually is, 'the kingdom of heaven is from within', I don't believe Heaven to be an actual physical place in our current sense either

What are you quoting when you say, 'the kingdom of heaven is from within'?

I did a google search and found this idea is based on, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Reading all the other context where "Kingdom heaven" shows up, It's plain to see Jesus is speaking of something other than "within". This is an example of "creative interpretation".


So, according to your presumably literal take on this you can't see how much more absurd it is that a being would suddenly become unhinged enough to think it could take on a deity that could crush him without a seconds thought? Seriously? How can you compare this to human beings with all their weaknesses and foibles who lived in Israel? :confused:

It's the same as today. There are folks here at TOL who believe they have the authority to rewrite God's Law. Or feel they are gods unto themselves. The Law itself is a witness to other "gods": "You shall have no other gods before Me." The idea of entities trying to usurp God is nothing new.


No you don't....you're just saying where it isn't - not what it is....and just who do you think would rather be in the ET'ers realm of the lake rather than with God once they had been brought to a knowledge of the truth?

Jesus is the One who tells us of the Lake. He compares it (this is a place to use the idea of metaphor) to the city dump. The dump (lake of fire) outside the city (Heaven).

I didn't ignore, I disagreed and offered a counter argument that's all,

On this point if you have nothing more to offer, we'll just drop it.

Jews, well Jews obviously....
Christians - people who believe the same as you do.... ;)
Pagans - anyone who doesn't believe and isn't a jew....?

Jews, it seems you understand the term. Christians, those in the Body of Christ. As you claim to be one it's odd you have so much trouble defining it. And it appears you understand the term pagan.

It's the fact that you lump up all people (except Jews apparently although what exactly would you call a Jewish agnostic) as pagans no matter where they come from, how 'paganistic' in it's literal term they are and I fail to see the need to dehumanise people to that extent, my saying that several christians used to be agnostics was not meant to put people into brackets but merely to say that paganism itself is largely irrelevant, a christian is just as much of a human being as an agnostic/atheist or whatever at the end of the day......

Dehumanize? If you are a pagan, be proud of it, but don't try to make it into something it isn't. When you mix Christianity with anything else, you get something other than Christianity.

What has a 'hard heart' to do with this? My parents detested the doctrine of eternal hell because of their compassion and are more turned away from belief because of it - not because they don't wish to believe in a creator

A hard heart has everything to do with it. To believe one is "just fine as one is" is to ignore everything the Bible says about human beings. Without Christ, one is not saved. If one is not saved, one won't be with God.


Freewill is affected by so many things, environment, circumstance etc

It appears you have changed your mind on the issue:

Post 248: "... - then how can we have freewill when it is affected by an entity with the power and will to influence people?"

As you have said, "freewill is affected by so many things". One of those things can also be "the whiles of the devil".

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Presumably you take this literally, I don't, if he's a literal beast then how can he use mental influence to tempt every person alive as it is now? It's metaphor, look at the chapter it's written in..... ;)

The same chapter as Christ's 1000 year reign, the Lake of Fire, and the Great White Throne Judgment. I don't see any of this as "metaphorical" but as prophecy.


What exactly do you think that angels are? Humanoid supernatural beings?

God's messengers. they are spiritual beings (that is, they have no flesh). But as I was saying, angels have the ability to influence folks.

Usually in the context of whats been written, I wouldnt say I'm right about every occurrence but then again considering the amount of differing views on these matters I doubt any human being actually is....I just find it patently absurd to think that one being would rebel against a creator where there was no chance of winning never mind more.....

As I've said repeatedly, it's not so far fetched when you observe how many people right now today are doing the same thing.

Do you claim that a good deal of the bible isn't metaphorical? 'Good council' seems like a very subjective term to try and make literal sense out of something that is blatantly symbolic as in the case of death being 'literally' thrown into a lake of physical fire for example, your argument also backfires when it comes to verses where there is no argument from either side as to the literal nature of such, Tim 4:10 isn't metaphorical and yet it's twisted around so much from those who will insist that much of revelation is to be taken literally!

I take that which is metaphorical as such. That which is literal as such. Even Jesus's metaphors about the Lake are about a literal place. Jesus isn't making the Lake up, but He uses metaphor to describe it.

Yes, we are human, and as such we are prone to human weakness and will be throughout the remainder of our lives, if you're not convinced by my position on the lake then fair enough although it's more than a 'handful' of passages.....the same with Knight and PK, it's a difference that they not only share among themselves but many others who would disagree with them both, I cannot proove my belief to be correct but I do know that it has more hope,love and positivity than anything ET does which effectively brings the opposite, it makes no sense on any level....

What it has is a bunch of "reading into the text" because there isn't anything else to uphold your view. There are many "subjective" ideas you find in a Book written by a God who is absolute.


The evidence points to this world being a lot older than 6000 years, whats more I have no problem believing that.....recall that passage saying that a day can be like a thousand years and a thousand years as a day?

Not really. How you interpret the physical evidence is up to you, not the physical evidence.


No, I don't really see the 10 commandments as metaphor at all, i just don't take the account of genesis literally....

The 10 Commandments take Genesis literally.

“ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. "

So does Jesus:

“Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?"

The point is they saw a man do these things, they were just human beings prone to the same weaknesses as you and I, do you think they would have reacted the same way if they saw God incarnate?

Who Moses? Moses let it be known Who he was working for and where the power came from. Part of Jesus letting Israel know Who He was was through miracles, and He was obviously not "prone to the same weaknesses as you and I".

I don't recall saying that I believe that even a literal satan would use force....I don't believe that God would have to force anyone because once everyone is brought to a knowledge of the truth they wouldn't have to be anyway.....

Once again, satan knows who God is, and tried to usurp His authority. He isn't "sorry" and he isn't going to repent. When "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" will most likely cause those who hate God to hate Him even more because now they have to admit the truth of the matter against their own free will.

You have still not answered the question here, did Jesus do away with an eye for an eye or not? And I also have no problem with the government using stern measures to counteract crime, but saying that I am 'misusing' an example is hollow unless you are going to back up just why that is, there is plenty in mosaic law that isn't followed today and perhaps you can actually just explain which particular laws aren't relevant now and just why that is?

You are misusing the example. It's been throughly debunked here at TOL a zillion times. Jesus was not going to give the accusers an excuse to call Him before Rome prematurely.

Jesus did not do away with the Law or the idea of justice. Eye for eye = justice = setting to right. If someone steals they repay 3 to 7 fold. If someone is raped, the rapist earns death. You need to divide rightly what is criminal law vs priestly or symbolic law.

Again, what has this passage to do with the death penalty? It doesn't mention it literally does it?

Yes. "But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain..."

And justice demands that innocent people aren't sent to their wrongful deaths as would inevitably happen under our present inept systems,

What has changed between Noah and now? Were folks more righteous back then? How about Rome and now? God issued the DP to Noah, Paul restates the command.

...
if you cannot see the obviousness of that after the amount of links that have been provided for both the UK and the US stats then I fail to see the point in even continuing this part of the debate....

I have evidence a Man was murdered by Israel and Rome. Yet afterwards, He still told Paul to issue the decree of the death penalty.

sorry for the delayed reply but it is often quite circular when we debate and I'm not exactly enthusiastic for that to continue, I'm all for honest debate but I need some kind of constructive point to it, if we can both admit that we're humans and not always gonna be right no matter how ardently we may feel then that would be a start perhaps

The answer is to do rightly by God's standard. That is a hard thing to do when you won't take God at His Word.

There is a lot in these posts I really don't care about. Personally I would rather focus on what you believe about God and His Word. You call yourself by the Name of Christ, therefore you speak in His Name. I'd rather focus on the stuff where you and His Word are at odds.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Oh c'mon ya ol' hypocrite, you have trouble accepting an answer to a single question yet avoid the above post like the plague. Is your theology so wacky even you are embarrassed to discuss it openly?
 

red77

New member
Oh c'mon ya ol' hypocrite, you have trouble accepting an answer to a single question yet avoid the above post like the plague. Is your theology so wacky even you are embarrassed to discuss it openly?

Nineveh, you have yet to answer that simple question, your accusations of hypocrisy are laughable until you do, pot meet Kettle Nineveh, you've prevaricated and avoided a straight yes or no like the....oh yes, the plague...

You can bandy around 'hypocrite' as much as you like, if I was embarrassed to discuss this thread openly then how come i stuck around on it for weeks as it is?! If you are so desperate to continue this conversation then fine, I will answer your above post later today when I have the time for all it'll achieve, hopefully by the same token you will actually answer the question I've asked you half a dozen times on the other thread, and I mean a straight answer........
 

red77

New member
What are you quoting when you say, 'the kingdom of heaven is from within'?

I did a google search and found this idea is based on, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." Reading all the other context where "Kingdom heaven" shows up, It's plain to see Jesus is speaking of something other than "within". This is an example of "creative interpretation".

Then try looking for kingdom of God, so will I later as there is definitely a passage where it's from within, nothing to do with 'creative interpretation'

It's the same as today. There are folks here at TOL who believe they have the authority to rewrite God's Law. Or feel they are gods unto themselves. The Law itself is a witness to other "gods": "You shall have no other gods before Me." The idea of entities trying to usurp God is nothing new.

You cannot compare human beings trying to comprehend the world about them with a being who was in God's kingdom and would have to have realised that any rebellion would be utterly pointless, how many people in this world are trying to 'usurp' God? plenty of people don't believe in God or aren't sure within themselves of his existence but i don't see many folk shouting for God to be overthrown.......

Jesus is the One who tells us of the Lake. He compares it (this is a place to use the idea of metaphor) to the city dump. The dump (lake of fire) outside the city (Heaven).

So then y this do you believe the lake to not actually being a literal lake of fire then?
On this point if you have nothing more to offer, we'll just drop it.

Fine by me.....

Jews, it seems you understand the term. Christians, those in the Body of Christ. As you claim to be one it's odd you have so much trouble defining it. And it appears you understand the term pagan.

People are people to me Nineveh, just because someone wears their faith as a label doesn't actually mean anything, even you once said that the last place you often find Christianity is among those who call themselves Christians.....

Dehumanize? If you are a pagan, be proud of it, but don't try to make it into something it isn't. When you mix Christianity with anything else, you get something other than Christianity.

What's pride got to do with WHATEVER anyone believes? i don't know many agnostics who are proud of it, the same as with atheists etc.......

A hard heart has everything to do with it. To believe one is "just fine as one is" is to ignore everything the Bible says about human beings. Without Christ, one is not saved. If one is not saved, one won't be with God.

Rubbish, a hard heart is one that tolerates eternal agony of sentient beings without question, my parents are agnostics, in your world that may mean that they go around each day shaking their fists at God but it doesn't in mine....


It appears you have changed your mind on the issue:

Post 248: "... - then how can we have freewill when it is affected by an entity with the power and will to influence people?"

As you have said, "freewill is affected by so many things". One of those things can also be "the whiles of the devil".

"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Freewill is only something I believe in to a limited extent, I believe in it a lot less than I used to because of the many factors that go into shaping us as the people we are, for example - if we were to have been brought up in nazi germany and brainwashed into believeing that it was the one true belief system then we'd be much more likely to have been shouting seik heil at the nuremeberg rallies than in being able to see it as an evil regime as we can on here....


The same chapter as Christ's 1000 year reign, the Lake of Fire, and the Great White Throne Judgment. I don't see any of this as "metaphorical" but as prophecy.

Earlier on you seemed to be saying that the lake of fire was actually metaphorical, either way you see this as literal, i do not, plenty of people would be agreeing and disagreeing with both of us as well as having their own ideas....

God's messengers. they are spiritual beings (that is, they have no flesh). But as I was saying, angels have the ability to influence folks.

Ok

As I've said repeatedly, it's not so far fetched when you observe how many people right now today are doing the same thing.

except they aren't doing the 'same thing', how many human beings are trying to otherthrow God while knowing that he could destroy them in a nanosecond Nin? Your insisting that a literal Satan who has already been surrounded by God's physical presence and rebelling is the same as Joe Bloggs not believeing in God is just absurd to me.....

I take that which is metaphorical as such. That which is literal as such. Even Jesus's metaphors about the Lake are about a literal place. Jesus isn't making the Lake up, but He uses metaphor to describe it.

Do you believe that you have the right interpretation of everything in the bible? if thats the case thenwhy is everyone not agreeing with you? Even some of your like minded brothers and sisters don't agree with you at times as well as with each other on theological matters so how do you ALWAYS know what is metaphorical and what is literal?


What it has is a bunch of "reading into the text" because there isn't anything else to uphold your view. There are many "subjective" ideas you find in a Book written by a God who is absolute.

is Tim 4:10 "subjective" Nineveh? It seems very straightforward and not in any context although it's amazing how many people try to twist 'especially' into 'only' because their own dogma will not allow it to read what it plainly says,


Not really. How you interpret the physical evidence is up to you, not the physical evidence.

well the physical evidence points towards our planet being a lot older than 6000 years


The 10 Commandments take Genesis literally.

“ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. "

So does Jesus:

“Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?"

Well, i guess I must break this commandment quite a bit really though I do usually try to chill out on Sunday before work the next day, I don't take the time of this literally, I don't have a truck with those who do either but there's already a separate thread that's been going back and forth other this for ages as it is.....

Who Moses? Moses let it be known Who he was working for and where the power came from. Part of Jesus letting Israel know Who He was was through miracles, and He was obviously not "prone to the same weaknesses as you and I".

No, I was referring to when Jesus walked the earth, to human beings he would still have appeared as a man yes? obviously his miracles would have changes the lives of many who witnessed them but what of those who didn't see them? Even those who had may still have been cynical, unfortunately it's a human trait.....

Once again, satan knows who God is, and tried to usurp His authority. He isn't "sorry" and he isn't going to repent. When "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" will most likely cause those who hate God to hate Him even more because now they have to admit the truth of the matter against their own free will.

Well this is TOTAL subjecture on your part, is a forced confession from people about to be carted off to some torture pit bringing glory to God? Is everyone who doesn't believe hating God in your world view? A lot of people I've come into contact with hope God does exist, that their life has a purpose, that those who they've loved and passed away will be with a God that loves them, makes more sense to me that when everyone realises that God exists, that God is LOVE they'd gladly confess the truth, that would bring actual glory would it not?

You are misusing the example. It's been throughly debunked here at TOL a zillion times. Jesus was not going to give the accusers an excuse to call Him before Rome prematurely.

You've debunked nothing, Jesus's own words did away with an eye for an eye, it's blatantly clear as it stands!

Jesus did not do away with the Law or the idea of justice. Eye for eye = justice = setting to right. If someone steals they repay 3 to 7 fold. If someone is raped, the rapist earns death. You need to divide rightly what is criminal law vs priestly or symbolic law.

see above.......:dizzy:

Yes. "But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain..."

And.....? How does this directly mean the DP?

What has changed between Noah and now? Were folks more righteous back then? How about Rome and now? God issued the DP to Noah, Paul restates the command.



I have evidence a Man was murdered by Israel and Rome. Yet afterwards, He still told Paul to issue the decree of the death penalty
.

Look, if you wish to support the DP knowing full well that many innocent people be put to death as a result then knock yourself out, this argument has gone around in circles for ages back on the relevant thread, God also abhors the shedding of innocent blood so if you find the inevitable deaths acceptable under the system you would advocate then thats between you and your conscience....

The answer is to do rightly by God's standard. That is a hard thing to do when you won't take God at His Word.

There is a lot in these posts I really don't care about. Personally I would rather focus on what you believe about God and His Word. You call yourself by the Name of Christ, therefore you speak in His Name. I'd rather focus on the stuff where you and His Word are at odds.

It's me and you that are at odds Nin....

Now then, for what it's worth i've answered your post, will you now do me the same courtesy and give me a "staight" answer to the question I've asked you already, either here or on the other thread would be fine

Is it right for Christians to slander people?

Yes or no?

Until you do then please spare me your labels of 'hypocrisy'....
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Then try looking for kingdom of God, so will I later as there is definitely a passage where it's from within, nothing to do with 'creative interpretation'

"'the kingdom of heaven is from within'" isn't in the Bible. Maybe you mean, "For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (NKJV) or "For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." (NASB). It appears "within" is also translated "among". Since Jesus was talking to the pharisees in this passage it's hard to imagine He was telling them the Kingdom was within them when He is so often found correcting them for their lack of understanding. But it does sound quite reasonable to suspect He was telling them the Kingdom was looking them right in the eye.

Either way, "from within" sounds extremely pagan. It sounds as if that is where the Kingdom is generated, the hearts of men. That is far from the Truth.

You cannot compare human beings trying to comprehend the world about them with a being who was in God's kingdom and would have to have realised that any rebellion would be utterly pointless, how many people in this world are trying to 'usurp' God? plenty of people don't believe in God or aren't sure within themselves of his existence but i don't see many folk shouting for God to be overthrown.......

It's easy. Satan still wanted God's authority. Same with atheists today, or agnostics, or any pagan for that matter. Knowing something and believing it are two different things. Satan knows God's Word, just like most pagans, that doesn't mean they believe it.

So then y this do you believe the lake to not actually being a literal lake of fire then?

The burning is real. Those that find themselves outside of God's Love will have no hope, no Love, no salvation. What they can fulfill here on earth in their bodies they can no longer fulfill. For instance, if they were an unrepentant drug addict, their physical body limited their "burning" lust to get high, in hell, their lust can never be quenched.


People are people to me Nineveh, just because someone wears their faith as a label doesn't actually mean anything, even you once said that the last place you often find Christianity is among those who call themselves Christians.....

While I agree with this, the point was your misunderstanding my use of terms. If you truly don't understand the labels I use, I will try to explain them again, if you actually do understand, then we can drop this part, too.

What's pride got to do with WHATEVER anyone believes? i don't know many agnostics who are proud of it, the same as with atheists etc.......

Pride has everything to do with it. If you truly believe you are right, no one is going to convince you otherwise, no matter what they offer. If someone says you are wrong on a topic, the humble thing is to take what they say into account, within reason of course. IE if someone tried to tell you you are wrong on the the sky appearing blue, why ponder such a thing?

Secondly, if you aren't "proud" of what you believe, why believe it? I can't speak for all the pagans you apparently can, but it seems to me a sad state of affairs when one is ashamed of what they believe.

Rubbish, a hard heart is one that tolerates eternal agony of sentient beings without question, my parents are agnostics, in your world that may mean that they go around each day shaking their fists at God but it doesn't in mine....

"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" isn't my idea. Nor is, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." It's painful to see those we love reject Christ, all the more reason to witness to them however and whenever we can. While you may see it as my heart being hard for taking God at His Word, you parent's salvation really rests on their own hearts and where they stand with the Creator.

Freewill is only something I believe in to a limited extent, I believe in it a lot less than I used to because of the many factors that go into shaping us as the people we are, for example - if we were to have been brought up in nazi germany and brainwashed into believeing that it was the one true belief system then we'd be much more likely to have been shouting seik heil at the nuremeberg rallies than in being able to see it as an evil regime as we can on here....

"Society" is a pretty excuse. But it's still an excuse. The mass murderer who tells a tale of how horrid his mother was is offering an excuse as to why he murdered people. Folks love excuses, it exonerates them from personal responsibility. But in the end, we all stand alone to give an account before God.

Earlier on you seemed to be saying that the lake of fire was actually metaphorical, either way you see this as literal, i do not, plenty of people would be agreeing and disagreeing with both of us as well as having their own ideas....

The place is real. The Bible tells us about it and Christ explains what it's like. That's why He died for us, to keep us out of that place. If you see it as simply metaphorical, what is it a metaphor of?

except they aren't doing the 'same thing', how many human beings are trying to otherthrow God while knowing that he could destroy them in a nanosecond Nin? Your insisting that a literal Satan who has already been surrounded by God's physical presence and rebelling is the same as Joe Bloggs not believeing in God is just absurd to me.....

They are doing the same thing. They weren't created with the same authority, but they were created to know God. When one is God's enemy, they are opposing God, just as satan did/does/will.

You never seem to answer the question on what satan actually is. I know you offered up it's for or about men, but I pointed out before you even replied with that, that the Bible has no problem in pointing out men are evil all on their own. Another thing you seem to be leaving to hang is what about all the other angels? Are they too only metaphor? And if so, of what? If not, why?

Do you believe that you have the right interpretation of everything in the bible? if thats the case thenwhy is everyone not agreeing with you? Even some of your like minded brothers and sisters don't agree with you at times as well as with each other on theological matters so how do you ALWAYS know what is metaphorical and what is literal?

When I'm wrong I expect to be corrected with the Bible in context. As to what and when something is metaphorical, literal, historical, et al, it's context that is key.

is Tim 4:10 "subjective" Nineveh? It seems very straightforward and not in any context although it's amazing how many people try to twist 'especially' into 'only' because their own dogma will not allow it to read what it plainly says,

I assume you mean 1Tim 4:10?

"If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

Specifically that Christ is the Savior of all men? Obviously that's literal. However, what you would ignore is that not everyone accepts the Savior. You can offer a gift, but if it is rejected, do they actually receive that gift? How many instances in Scripture must we ignore to arrive at universal salvation? Quite a few.

well the physical evidence points towards our planet being a lot older than 6000 years

Not really. You read the evidence through an evo lens. I used to too, so did bob b and a lot of others. When you look at the same evidence through a different lens, you see something else. God's finger prints are on everything.

Well, i guess I must break this commandment quite a bit really though I do usually try to chill out on Sunday before work the next day, I don't take the time of this literally, I don't have a truck with those who do either but there's already a separate thread that's been going back and forth other this for ages as it is.....

So how does this paragraph rebut that God thought His creating so important He put it in the Law?

No, I was referring to when Jesus walked the earth, to human beings he would still have appeared as a man yes? obviously his miracles would have changes the lives of many who witnessed them but what of those who didn't see them? Even those who had may still have been cynical, unfortunately it's a human trait.....

"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The miracles didn't happen in a vacuum. The word of what Christ was doing spread. Those miracles were a sign to Israel of who Christ was.


Well this is TOTAL subjecture on your part, is a forced confession from people about to be carted off to some torture pit bringing glory to God? Is everyone who doesn't believe hating God in your world view? A lot of people I've come into contact with hope God does exist, that their life has a purpose, that those who they've loved and passed away will be with a God that loves them, makes more sense to me that when everyone realises that God exists, that God is LOVE they'd gladly confess the truth, that would bring actual glory would it not?

They have God's Word. It's up to them and their heart to accept or reject Him. Like I said, people love excuses. Anyway, to assume that forcing people to confess that God really is in control would not make folks like granite love him or repent.

If someone twisted your arm and forced you to you knees to force you to admit they had more power than you, would you love them? I doubt it, but, if they had the ability to force you to your knees and make a confession, then you would be confessing they have authority over you.

You've debunked nothing, Jesus's own words did away with an eye for an eye, it's blatantly clear as it stands!

I didn't say, I did. I said it's been debunked ad nauseum here at TOL. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Let alone the fact Paul comes right after Him saying the government is to put people to death, and yes, that's what a "sword" is for.


And.....? How does this directly mean the DP?

Do you really believe Paul was talking about interior design while telling those that do evil to fear the weapon of the government?

Look, if you wish to support the DP knowing full well that many innocent people be put to death as a result then knock yourself out, this argument has gone around in circles for ages back on the relevant thread, God also abhors the shedding of innocent blood so if you find the inevitable deaths acceptable under the system you would advocate then thats between you and your conscience....

Yeah, it's gone round and round, and the question you still avoid (as far as I know) is what has actually changed from the time God gave the command to Noah, or Paul reiterating it?

Knowingly executing someone who is innocent is murder, not the death penalty. Those that practice such should be held accountable.

It's me and you that are at odds Nin....

Now then, for what it's worth i've answered your post, will you now do me the same courtesy and give me a "staight" answer to the question I've asked you already, either here or on the other thread would be fine

Is it right for Christians to slander people?

One more time won't matter red, but here it goes, again. I'll try being blunt this time:

Instead of a curt "yes or no" you want form me, I'd rather be thorough with my answer. Is it wrong for anyone to lie about or slander someone else? Of course. Now to the crux of the disagreement between you and I: Your judgments aren't based on anything sound, they are based on your own standard. So, once again, what you, red, may call lying or slander may or may not be.

Now, after 5 or 6 attempts, with this answer be to your liking?
 

red77

New member
"'the kingdom of heaven is from within'" isn't in the Bible. Maybe you mean, "For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (NKJV) or "For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." (NASB). It appears "within" is also translated "among". Since Jesus was talking to the pharisees in this passage it's hard to imagine He was telling them the Kingdom was within them when He is so often found correcting them for their lack of understanding. But it does sound quite reasonable to suspect He was telling them the Kingdom was looking them right in the eye.

Either way, "from within" sounds extremely pagan. It sounds as if that is where the Kingdom is generated, the hearts of men. That is far from the Truth.

I think it's a bit pedantic to say that the word 'from' within suddenly puts a 'pagan' aspect to it, the point of this passage is to say that the kingdom isn't some golden palace or whatever but truly within....

It's easy. Satan still wanted God's authority. Same with atheists today, or agnostics, or any pagan for that matter. Knowing something and believing it are two different things. Satan knows God's Word, just like most pagans, that doesn't mean they believe it.

If you believe Satan to be a literal being then Satan didn't believe, he knew, and then still decided to rebel knowing he'd lost from the outset? :confused:

The burning is real. Those that find themselves outside of God's Love will have no hope, no Love, no salvation. What they can fulfill here on earth in their bodies they can no longer fulfill. For instance, if they were an unrepentant drug addict, their physical body limited their "burning" lust to get high, in hell, their lust can never be quenched.

So says you, but it's yet again a case of conjecture on your part as to what happens to people,


While I agree with this, the point was your misunderstanding my use of terms. If you truly don't understand the labels I use, I will try to explain them again, if you actually do understand, then we can drop this part, too.

i think we've already exhausted this topic really....

Pride has everything to do with it. If you truly believe you are right, no one is going to convince you otherwise, no matter what they offer. If someone says you are wrong on a topic, the humble thing is to take what they say into account, within reason of course. IE if someone tried to tell you you are wrong on the the sky appearing blue, why ponder such a thing?

Secondly, if you aren't "proud" of what you believe, why believe it? I can't speak for all the pagans you apparently can, but it seems to me a sad state of affairs when one is ashamed of what they believe.

I don't think either pride or shame have anything to play in it! Your argument seems to revolve around the idea that most people would be proud to be agnostics, why? I was neither proud or ashamed when I was one, I simply was looking at the world and searching, and in my experience it's been the same with all of the people I've met in life who claim to be as such,

"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" isn't my idea. Nor is, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." It's painful to see those we love reject Christ, all the more reason to witness to them however and whenever we can. While you may see it as my heart being hard for taking God at His Word, you parent's salvation really rests on their own hearts and where they stand with the Creator.

It's how you refuse to submit to this word being anything other than what you have as literal despite the most glaringly metaphorical chapter of the entire bible, it's because my parents recoil at the thought of senseless suffering that 'fundamentalist hell' doctrines drive them further away from any belief! Is that so surprising to you?

"Society" is a pretty excuse. But it's still an excuse. The mass murderer who tells a tale of how horrid his mother was is offering an excuse as to why he murdered people. Folks love excuses, it exonerates them from personal responsibility. But in the end, we all stand alone to give an account before God.

Come off it Nineveh, we're all products of our upbringing and environment to a certain extent and it's not an excuse argument, somebody who is brought up from birth to believe that Nazism is the one right path is not in the same boat as someone who is brought up to think for themselves, surely you see the logic in this?

The place is real. The Bible tells us about it and Christ explains what it's like. That's why He died for us, to keep us out of that place. If you see it as simply metaphorical, what is it a metaphor of?

Of course I see it as metaphor, one simple factor being that death itself is thrown into it!!
What you seem to miss is that even though I believe that God can actually restore all of his own world is that justice will still actually be served, but with God being love then whatever form that will take will be done with purpose.......

They are doing the same thing. They weren't created with the same authority, but they were created to know God. When one is God's enemy, they are opposing God, just as satan did/does/will.

no they aren't! None of us have been in God's physical presence have we? Are you suggesting that every agnostic is shaking their hands at God??

You never seem to answer the question on what satan actually is. I know you offered up it's for or about men, but I pointed out before you even replied with that, that the Bible has no problem in pointing out men are evil all on their own. Another thing you seem to be leaving to hang is what about all the other angels? Are they too only metaphor? And if so, of what? If not, why?

i believe Satan to be a metaphor for the evil and darkness that exists within man, as for the fallen angels I find it equally as hard to believe that they're literal beings that as well decided to fight against a creator that they too must have known could have destroyed them in an instant

When I'm wrong I expect to be corrected with the Bible in context. As to what and when something is metaphorical, literal, historical, et al, it's context that is key.

But when you are presented with a counter argument to your view i've yet to see you give it serious acknowledgement and continually try to browbeat other people into acceding to your own view by declaring that they're 'at odds with God's word'.....when in fact they're at odds with your interpretation of the word....

I assume you mean 1Tim 4:10?

"If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

Specifically that Christ is the Savior of all men? Obviously that's literal. However, what you would ignore is that not everyone accepts the Savior. You can offer a gift, but if it is rejected, do they actually receive that gift? How many instances in Scripture must we ignore to arrive at universal salvation? Quite a few
.

Yet again you are merely doing what so many others have already done before, make 'especially' mean 'only', if Christ is the saviour of all men then is just that, the word especially means that ALL men are redeemed, your paragraph above means that ONLY believers are in fact redeemed, I know you're intelligent enough to see this so I shouldn't have to exaplin any further! ;)

oh, and just how many other verses do you have to ignore to believe that God can actually keep all of what he creates? quite a few..... :)

Not really. You read the evidence through an evo lens. I used to too, so did bob b and a lot of others. When you look at the same evidence through a different lens, you see something else. God's finger prints are on everything.

I don't really read it through any type of lens, I just have no problem in believeing that the world is well over 6000 years old and that Genesis is not literal

So how does this paragraph rebut that God thought His creating so important He put it in the Law?

Possibly because he knew that as human beings, flesh and blood we needed to rest awhile and have some chill time?

"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The miracles didn't happen in a vacuum. The word of what Christ was doing spread. Those miracles were a sign to Israel of who Christ was.

And Jesus didn't condemn Thomas for requiring more proof did he?


They have God's Word. It's up to them and their heart to accept or reject Him. Like I said, people love excuses. Anyway, to assume that forcing people to confess that God really is in control would not make folks like granite love him or repent.

If someone twisted your arm and forced you to you knees to force you to admit they had more power than you, would you love them? I doubt it, but, if they had the ability to force you to your knees and make a confession, then you would be confessing they have authority over you.

And how would this forcing bring glory to God exactly? I don't see that one Nineveh, please explain, what would bring glory is that people would actually do it because they knew and saw the light......
If someone placed my arm behind my back to get me to say something they wanted to hear then that is just bullying, hardly 'glory'....

I didn't say, I did. I said it's been debunked ad nauseum here at TOL. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Let alone the fact Paul comes right after Him saying the government is to put people to death, and yes, that's what a "sword" is for.

and....? It still doesn't get around the fact that Jesus did away with an eye for an eye!


Do you really believe Paul was talking about interior design while telling those that do evil to fear the weapon of the government?

Do you really believe that this was specifically ordinated to the DP?

Yeah, it's gone round and round, and the question you still avoid (as far as I know) is what has actually changed from the time God gave the command to Noah, or Paul reiterating it?

Knowingly executing someone who is innocent is murder, not the death penalty. Those that practice such should be held accountable.

Knowingly supporting a ssystem in which you knew innocent people would be put to death under is just as bad as murder, I suggest you reread those links from the other thread.....


One more time won't matter red, but here it goes, again. I'll try being blunt this time:

Instead of a curt "yes or no" you want form me, I'd rather be thorough with my answer. Is it wrong for anyone to lie about or slander someone else? Of course. Now to the crux of the disagreement between you and I: Your judgments aren't based on anything sound, they are based on your own standard. So, once again, what you, red, may call lying or slander may or may not be.

Now, after 5 or 6 attempts, with this answer be to your liking?

there IS no standard when it comes to slander, something you're well aware of or at least by now you should be....
It would be VERY easy to bring up posts where people who call themselves Christians have slandered others on here, if you're still using the 'subjective' card it went ages ago Nin, unless you want me to believe that when Christians have called other people homos, paedophiles and molestors or insinuated as much is justifiable then quit it unless you want to be the worst thing it seems possible........
 
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Nineveh

Merely Christian
I think it's a bit pedantic to say that the word 'from' within suddenly puts a 'pagan' aspect to it, the point of this passage is to say that the kingdom isn't some golden palace or whatever but truly within....

But that's not what the verse says. Be honest and look at the context. And yes, "from within" makes it mean something entirely different.

If you believe Satan to be a literal being then Satan didn't believe, he knew, and then still decided to rebel knowing he'd lost from the outset? :confused:

His pride was greater than his love for his creator. Happens every day.

So says you, but it's yet again a case of conjecture on your part as to what happens to people,

And where does that leave you? Jesus speaks of the Lake, I have no reason to doubt His Word on the matter.

I don't think either pride or shame have anything to play in it! Your argument seems to revolve around the idea that most people would be proud to be agnostics, why? I was neither proud or ashamed when I was one, I simply was looking at the world and searching, and in my experience it's been the same with all of the people I've met in life who claim to be as such,

You claimed, "i don't know many agnostics who are proud of it", I merely said it was odd to be ashamed of one's own beliefs.

It's how you refuse to submit to this word being anything other than what you have as literal despite the most glaringly metaphorical chapter of the entire bible, it's because my parents recoil at the thought of senseless suffering that 'fundamentalist hell' doctrines drive them further away from any belief! Is that so surprising to you?

Ok, so that's their excuse. Mine was different, other's have their own. "Forever" really means "forever". What they think of as "senseless" is seen by others as a personal choice. They have the same Book I do, it's up to them to believe what God has to say or not, not me, not you.

Come off it Nineveh, we're all products of our upbringing and environment to a certain extent and it's not an excuse argument, somebody who is brought up from birth to believe that Nazism is the one right path is not in the same boat as someone who is brought up to think for themselves, surely you see the logic in this?

Society won't be standing behind hitler giving him a "thumbs up" or a "thumbs down" when he gives his account before God. He will be judged by the Law. Without Christ he will be found wanting and his name will not be found in the Book of Life, he will be sent to the lake.

Of course I see it as metaphor, one simple factor being that death itself is thrown into it!!

So death being thrown into the Lake, which is the second death, is a metaphor for what?

What you seem to miss is that even though I believe that God can actually restore all of his own world is that justice will still actually be served, but with God being love then whatever form that will take will be done with purpose.......

Except if that form is being cut off forever from His presence.

no they aren't! None of us have been in God's physical presence have we? Are you suggesting that every agnostic is shaking their hands at God??

I am saying everyone who rejects God rejects God. I am saying they do this of their own free will.

i believe Satan to be a metaphor for the evil and darkness that exists within man,

Why? To what purpose? Wasn't Gen 6:5 clear enough? Shoot, what of the rest of the Bible? Who was tempting Christ?

as for the fallen angels I find it equally as hard to believe that they're literal beings that as well decided to fight against a creator that they too must have known could have destroyed them in an instant

What are all of these fallen beings metaphors for? More wickedness of men? And what of those such as Gabriel? Is this angel a metaphor as well? If so, of what?

But when you are presented with a counter argument to your view i've yet to see you give it serious acknowledgement and continually try to browbeat other people into acceding to your own view by declaring that they're 'at odds with God's word'.....when in fact they're at odds with your interpretation of the word....

They are free to counter any arguments with in context Scripture, just I counter their arguments. It appears you are willing to accept out of context single sentences as a rebuttal, I am not, especially when it goes directly against whatever it is the arguer is trying to support with them.

Yet again you are merely doing what so many others have already done before, make 'especially' mean 'only', if Christ is the saviour of all men then is just that, the word especially means that ALL men are redeemed, your paragraph above means that ONLY believers are in fact redeemed, I know you're intelligent enough to see this so I shouldn't have to exaplin any further! ;)

Christ is the Savior of mankind, but that does not mean every man will accept His gift. John disagrees with your assessment, as does Paul.

"to all and on all who believe" - Paul

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John

oh, and just how many other verses do you have to ignore to believe that God can actually keep all of what he creates? quite a few..... :)

In context? Mind offering them?

I don't really read it through any type of lens, I just have no problem in believeing that the world is well over 6000 years old and that Genesis is not literal

...and you have a problem believing Christ was tempted by satan, or that men really can reject their Creator, or that some folks earn death.... There is quite a lot in the Bible you don't believe.

I think you meant to say you have a problem believing Genesis is literal.

Possibly because he knew that as human beings, flesh and blood we needed to rest awhile and have some chill time?

So He states He created in 6 days, then later says it again, and all you get from that is a day off? What could His purpose have been for stating He created in the Law? Why make something up, then repeat it in the Law? How much more of the Law is "made up" and can be taken as "metaphor"?

And Jesus didn't condemn Thomas for requiring more proof did he?

Thomas believed, he didn't reject. Miracles were for the Jews.

And how would this forcing bring glory to God exactly? I don't see that one Nineveh, please explain, what would bring glory is that people would actually do it because they knew and saw the light......
If someone placed my arm behind my back to get me to say something they wanted to hear then that is just bullying, hardly 'glory'....

But you are forgetting we are talking about the whole world vs the Creator God here. God has to put up with murderers and child rapists and all manner of evil from people who reject Him on a daily basis. At some point in time, the Law is going to be brought to bear and the whole world will be held accountable. No one will be able to offer up any further excuse. God will be acknowledged to be Who He is. There will not be a single tongue unable to confess anything other than Who He is. As to that bringing Glory (praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent) to Him, all will know they are indeed guilty by His Righteous standard. No one can raise a fist to shake at Him being unjust or unholy. You may see that as "bullying", but it is no more so than having the loser sign a document acknowledging their defeat at the end of a war.


and....? It still doesn't get around the fact that Jesus did away with an eye for an eye!

If you are going to ignore Jesus own Words about the Law, who am I to convince you otherwise?

Do you really believe that this was specifically ordinated to the DP?

The death penalty for murder was reiterated in the Law. It existed before the Law was given to Israel and it was repeated after Christ ascended into Heaven. Yes, I believe to tell folks to fear the weapon of the government is the death penalty, not about interior design. What do you say it means?

Knowingly supporting a ssystem in which you knew innocent people would be put to death under is just as bad as murder, I suggest you reread those links from the other thread.....

I'll ask again. What has changed between Noah and now? What has changed between Paul and now? Was Paul "just as bad" for upholding the death penalty after Christ was put to death by the very same government?

there IS no standard when it comes to slander

Then why should you want me so badly to say "yes or no" about it being "wrong" if there is absolutely no standard to go by?

something you're well aware of or at least by now you should be....

Slander: "a false and defamatory oral statement about a person"

How about, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

I wonder if you will ever get around to understanding where I said you judge slander by your own standard, since you confess there is no standard to go by and seem to think that is common knowledge.

It would be VERY easy to bring up posts where people who call themselves Christians have slandered others on here, if you're still using the 'subjective' card it went ages ago Nin, unless you want me to believe that when Christians have called other people homos, paedophiles and molestors or insinuated as much is justifiable then quit it unless you want to be the worst thing it seems possible........

But, red, you can't judge slander one way or another, as you don't know of any standard. Do you get it yet? I seriously doubt you do. So here it is again: You judge by your own standard, it's arbitrary. Yo do not judge with Righteous judgment, you even admit to this fact by saying, "there IS no standard when it comes to slander".
 

red77

New member
Nineveh, your final answer on here is yet more sidestepping, the reason why there is no 'standard' of slander is because it's own definition describes exactly what it is! This is just muddying the waters again, neither of us can judge slander itself, only the causes as to why someone would do as such which is separate altogether, I know you understand this Nineveh so please don't try and obfusctae the issue anymore and just give a straight answer, I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow as i won't have much time online today due to a Christmas works night out......
 
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Nineveh

Merely Christian
...the reason why there is no 'standard' of slander is because it's own definition describes exactly what it is!

In the words of Monty Python, "oida-dyda-ding-ding-ding". :hammer: :kookoo: :dizzy:

This is just muddying the waters again, neither of us can judge slander itself, only the causes as to why someone would do as such which is separate altogether, I know you understand this Nineveh...

Both of the above sentences contradict themselves before they even reach the end. What you should know that I understand is this: Your world view needs major help.

so please don't try and obfusctae the issue anymore and just give a straight answer, I'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow as i won't have much time online today due to a Christmas works night out......

At this point, red, I dunno if it really matters if you reply to the rest of the post. Your world view is completely arbitrary. You pick and choose what you will and won't believe out of Scripture or simply write off anything you don't like as "metaphorical". You seem to have the same affliction as the other universalists and agnostics at TOL. Thinking this over, I really have nothing else of substance to offer you. Instead of replying to the rest of my post, might I suggest your time would better be spent reading the Bible from cover to cover while trying to put what you "believe" to the side while you do.
 

red77

New member
In the words of Monty Python, "oida-dyda-ding-ding-ding". :hammer: :kookoo: :dizzy:



Both of the above sentences contradict themselves before they even reach the end. What you should know that I understand is this: Your world view needs major help.



At this point, red, I dunno if it really matters if you reply to the rest of the post. Your world view is completely arbitrary. You pick and choose what you will and won't believe out of Scripture or simply write off anything you don't like as "metaphorical". You seem to have the same affliction as the other universalists and agnostics at TOL. Thinking this over, I really have nothing else of substance to offer you. Instead of replying to the rest of my post, might I suggest your time would better be spent reading the Bible from cover to cover while trying to put what you "believe" to the side while you do.

oh spare me your attempts at patronising and obfuscating, you know fine well that slander itself is not a subjective matter, if i say something false about you then its slander, udo the same to me then it's slander, you'll do anything to get out of addressing the point and giving a straight answer, that being is it wrong for Christians to engage in such, there is no 'arbitrary' standard whatsoever which you know all too well

And as for the rest then it's just a case of your usual arrogant rhetoric, anyone who doesn't believe the exact same thing as you and doesn't take every single passage either as literal or metaphorical as you has to be wrong, quite frankly I'll be glad not to waste another half hour on a fruitless undertaking of answering your post because you seem to know everything anyway including why my parents have their present beliefs along with why everyone else has theirs...

I suggest the same as regards the bible to you, put your own dogma aside, the difference between you and me is that I already HAVE done it after being taught to believe the exact same fundamentalist rhetoric as youand then seeing with open eyes that what the traditional church likes to teach doesn't hold water with the 'good news' message of the bible, but I strongly doubt you'd be able to put your own pride aside to admit that you could just possibly be wrong......

My world view is just fine but thanks for your concern.....

And in the words of Monty Python: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: luvvverly :spam: etc....
 

chatmaggot

New member
Knight linked to this thread in a previous thread and I re-read the Nicer Than God article by Bob. It has been about a year since I read it last.

It makes me miss watching him at late night talking to some of the craziest callers ever to phone in on a talk show.

Does anyone who watched the show remember a kid Bob had on his show who he referred to as "Nick from Niles"? I think he and some friends were protesting one of Bob's seminars in Michigan or something and Bob invited them in. Afterwards he invited Nick on the show. He seemed like a nice kid. Whatever happened to Nick from Niles Michigan?
 
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