On the omniscience of God

Derf

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philosophy is’t wisdom according to scripture, but it is a good way to become confused and ruined to God’s wisdom.
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Col 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Isn’t that what you’re doing, following after traditions of man, when you use a single scripture, interpreted through the lens of immutability to say God changes in no way whatsoever, when God tells us all kinds of ways that He changes?
 

Derf

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Just because God cannot change in ONE way doesn't mean He cannot change in ANY way.

Jesus (God) became a man. That's a change.
Jesus (God) increased in wisdom. That's a change.
Jesus (God) humbled Himself and became obedient. That's a change.

That's three examples FROM SCRIPTURE that show God changing in DRASTIC and UNDENIABLE WAYS, LN!

So either God was lying, OR God did not mean "I change not [at all]."

God didn't lie, therefore, God is not immutable.
Here are some more changes, @Leatherneck

God’s knowledge changes:
Genesis 22:12 (KJV)
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

God’s Spirit isn’t always upon the same people:
1 Samuel 10:10 (KJV) And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV)
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

God’s choices change:
1 Samuel 15:26 (KJV) And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
 

Leatherneck

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Just because God cannot change in ONE way doesn't mean He cannot change in ANY way.

Jesus (God) became a man. That's a change.
Jesus (God) increased in wisdom. That's a change.
Jesus (God) humbled Himself and became obedient. That's a change.

That's three examples FROM SCRIPTURE that show God changing in DRASTIC and UNDENIABLE WAYS, LN!

So either God was lying, OR God did not mean "I change not [at all]."

God didn't lie, therefore, God is not immutable.
Of course God doesn’t lie that is a given; however, God in heaven, when Jesus was a man, NEVER changed, and you cannot find one verse that says God in heaven changed.
 

Leatherneck

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Not sure why you're drawing such wrath, but I'm happy to see you can still laugh.
I find it absolutely sad that men who follow God cannot believe a verse as plain as Malachi 3:6. I read the verse several times and it still says God doesn’t change no matter how many times I read it .Jesus never said it would be easy He did say it would be worth it.
 

Leatherneck

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Just because God cannot change in ONE way doesn't mean He cannot change in ANY way.

Jesus (God) became a man. That's a change.
Jesus (God) increased in wisdom. That's a change.
Jesus (God) humbled Himself and became obedient. That's a change.

That's three examples FROM SCRIPTURE that show God changing in DRASTIC and UNDENIABLE WAYS, LN!

So either God was lying, OR God did not mean "I change not [at all]."

God didn't lie, therefore, God is not immutable.
Just because God cannot change in ONE way doesn't mean He cannot change in ANY way.

Jesus (God) became a man. That's a change.
Jesus (God) increased in wisdom. That's a change.
Jesus (God) humbled Himself and became obedient. That's a change.

That's three examples FROM SCRIPTURE that show God changing in DRASTIC and UNDENIABLE WAYS, LN!

So either God was lying, OR God did not mean "I change not [at all]."

God didn't lie, therefore, God is not immutable.
Wether you believe it or accept it or not it changes not one thing. God said “I change not” and your disagreement is with God who said it. Where was God the Father when Jesus was a man ? Answer heaven. Where was God the Father when Jesus gained in wisdom ? Answer heaven. Where was God the Father when Jesus became obedient ? Answer heaven. Now find a verse that says God the Father changes just one. Hint: there are none.
 

Leatherneck

Well-known member
Isn’t that what you’re doing, following after traditions of man, when you use a single scripture, interpreted through the lens of immutability to say God changes in no way whatsoever, when God tells us all kinds of ways that He changes?
Name one way from scripture that God the Father changes.
 

Derf

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For clarity's sake let me just tell you that death, biblically speaking, does not mean to cease to exist. Death is one kind or another of spiritual separation. When your spirit is separated from the Father then you are spiritually dead. When your spirit separates from your body then you are physically dead. Christ died in both ways (and was resurrected in both ways as well).
Unrelated, but it's amazing how often this subject comes up, don't you think?
 

JudgeRightly

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Of course God doesn’t lie that is a given; however, God in heaven, when Jesus was a man,

Is Jesus God?

Yes.

Did Jesus change?

Yes.

Therefore, God changed.

The Father and the Sone and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD, Leatherneck.

Therefore, a change in one NECESSITATES a change in the others.

NEVER changed, and you cannot find one verse that says God in heaven changed.

I'll do you one better, I'll give you a passage that shows the Father, the Son, AND the Holy Spirit, changing:

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:16-17&version=NKJV

The Father in Heaven went from NOT saying "This is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased," to saying "This is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased," and then He finished saying it, and did not keep saying it.

That's two changes.

The Holy Spirit descended like a dove and alighted on Jesus.

That's two changes.

Jesus was out of the water, went in the water, went UNDER the water, and then came up from the water.

That's THREE changes.
 

JudgeRightly

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I find it absolutely sad that men who follow God cannot believe a verse as plain as Malachi 3:6.

I find it absolutely sad that a man who claims to follow God cannot grasp the context of Malachi 3:6 (which includes the whole Bible) which shows that God DOES change in ways other than the way He says He doesn't change in Malachi 3:6.

I read the verse several times

Try starting in Malachi 3:1 instead.

and it still says God doesn’t change

It says God doesn't change in that He won't violate His own standards.

It DOES NOT say that God does not change AT ALL.

You're the one adding the "at all" bit with your beliefs.

no matter how many times I read it .Jesus never said it would be easy He did say it would be worth it.

Irrelevant.
 

JudgeRightly

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Wether you believe it or accept it or not it changes not one thing. God said “I change not”

I completely accept that God said "I change not."

The difference is that I don't rip what He said out of context like you do to make it say "I change not at all."

and your disagreement is with God who said it.

No, my disagreement is with YOUR beliefs, not with scripture.

Where was God the Father when Jesus was a man? Answer heaven.

Knock it off with the excessive spacebar presses. Having to delete all of them every post is getting annoying.

Where was God the Father when Jesus gained in wisdom? Answer heaven. Where was God the Father when Jesus became obedient? Answer heaven. Now find a verse that says God the Father changes just one. Hint: there are none.

Wrong.

Matthew 3:16-17.
 

Leatherneck

Well-known member
Is Jesus God?

Yes.

Did Jesus change?

Yes.

Therefore, God changed.

The Father and the Sone and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD, Leatherneck.

Therefore, a change in one NECESSITATES a change in the others.



I'll do you one better, I'll give you a passage that shows the Father, the Son, AND the Holy Spirit, changing:

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:16-17&version=NKJV

The Father in Heaven went from NOT saying "This is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased," to saying "This is my Son, in Whom I am well pleased," and then He finished saying it, and did not keep saying it.

That's two changes.

The Holy Spirit descended like a dove and alighted on Jesus.

That's two changes.

Jesus was out of the water, went in the water, went UNDER the water, and then came up from the water.

That's THREE changes.
Ok, find me a verse from scripture that says God the Father changes. It was God the Father prior to Jesus being born that said I change not. It should not be difficult to produce just one verse saying God the Father changes if its true.
 
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Leatherneck

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I find it absolutely sad that a man who claims to follow God cannot grasp the context of Malachi 3:6 (which includes the whole Bible) which shows that God DOES change in ways other than the way He says He doesn't change in Malachi 3:6.



Try starting in Malachi 3:1 instead.



It says God doesn't change in that He won't violate His own standards.

It DOES NOT say that God does not change AT ALL.

You're the one adding the "at all" bit with your beliefs.



Irrelevant.
All I did was quote what God said, but for some reason you can’t seem to grasp God saying I change not. Your loss not mine.
 

Leatherneck

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I completely accept that God said "I change not."

The difference is that I don't rip what He said out of context like you do to make it say "I change not at all."



No, my disagreement is with YOUR beliefs, not with scripture.



Knock it off with the excessive spacebar presses. Having to delete all of them every post is getting annoying.



Wrong.

Matthew 3:16-17.
I am not the one who added to scripture by adding “ at all” that would be you.why do you feel the need to delete excessive space bar presses ?
 
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JudgeRightly

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Name one way from scripture that God the Father changes.

He speaks. Matthew 3:16-17

He learns. Genesis 22:12

He says He will no longer do something He said He would do. Jeremiah 18:9-10

He became the Father of the Son who has two natures, where previously He was the Father of the Son who had only one nature. Luke 2

He became the God of Abraham (Genesis 12), the God of Isaac (Genesis 21), and the God of Jacob (Genesis 28).

Need I go on?
 

Leatherneck

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He speaks. Matthew 3:16-17

He learns. Genesis 22:12

He says He will no longer do something He said He would do. Jeremiah 18:9-10

He became the Father of the Son who has two natures, where previously He was the Father of the Son who had only one nature. Luke 2

He became the God of Abraham (Genesis 12), the God of Isaac (Genesis 21), and the God of Jacob (Genesis 28).

Need I go on?
You keep making the same error. You attribute to God the Father what God the Son experienced. You do understand that God the Father was in heaven while Jesus walked the earth right ?
 

JudgeRightly

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I am not the one who added to scripture by adding “ not at all” that would be you.

You're the one who believes God does not change at all. not me.

Why do you feel the need to delete excessive space bar presses?

Because it's annoying to have to clean up your posts when I reply to them.

Also, Rule 9.
9. Thou SHALL NOT disrespect TOL moderators and admins (if you are asked by a TOL moderator to alter a post, your signature, avatar, or other input on TOL, please respect that request). If you have been banned, please wait-out your ban. Please do not re-register using a new username unless you have made a special arrangement with the TOL staff.
 

JudgeRightly

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You keep making the same error.

I'm literally telling you what God the Father does, and you're telling me I'm in error?

Get real.

You attribute to God the Father what God the Son experienced.

God the Father is speaking in Matthew 3:16-17.

Not the Son.

God the Holy Spirit is descending like a dove in the same passage.

Not the Son.

You were saying?

You do understand that God the Father was in heaven while Jesus walked the earth right ?

I'm literally quoting a verse where God the Father is speaking IN HEAVEN, SHOING YOU THAT HE IS CHANGING! So WHAT IN THE WORLD IS YOUR POINT!?!?!
 

JudgeRightly

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All I did was quote what God said,

What you did was called "prooftexting."

You ripped a verse, no, a phrase from a verse out of context, and you demand that it supports your position, and I'm telling you that that won't fly for an argument.

but for some reason you can’t seem to grasp God saying I change not. Your loss not mine.

I fully grasp what God said. He doesn't say "I do not change at all."
 

Leatherneck

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I will
You're the one who believes God does not change at all. not me.



Because it's annoying to have to clean up your posts when I reply to them.

Also, Rule 9.
I didn’t realize I was hitting the space bar to many times. I will pay closer attention. It was a question not meant as disrespect.
 
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