On the omniscience of God

Leatherneck

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It’s only a lie if “change” is defined in such an absolute way that it applies to everything about God—that’s the whole point, so I’m glad you picked up on it. Once we see that it can’t apply to “everything” about God, it forces us to seek the limits of the scope of the passage, which is in regard to God’s promise to Israel not to consume them.

And it’s not a doctrinal statement about immutability, as you’ve pointed out so clearly.
I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.
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Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.God is immutable wether you believe and accept it or not.If Malachi had been written like this,For I am the Lord I do not change and because I do not change you sons of Jacob are not consumed.Therefore joins two related independent clauses. The independent clauses are I do not change/You sons of Jacob are not destroyed.
 
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glorydaz

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I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.
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Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.God is immutable wether you believe and accept it or not.
And this next verse tells us something else... God's not changing here, that's for sure.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 

Derf

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I change not is the reason God gave for not destroying the sons and Jacob.
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Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.God is immutable wether you believe and accept it or not.If Malachi had been written like this,For I am the Lord I do not change and because I do not change you sons of Jacob are not consumed.Therefore joins two related independent clauses. The independent clauses are I do not change/You sons of Jacob are not destroyed.
So? How does that affect what I wrote? God’s change, or lack thereof, in that verse is limited to what the verse is talking about. But we know God has a relationship with us, who have not existed forever, so that’s one kind of change the verse is NOT talking about.
 
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Leatherneck

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So? How does that affect what I wrote? God’s change, or lack thereof, in that verse is limited to what the verse is talking about. But we know God has a relationship with us, who have not existed forever, so that’s one kind of change the verse is NOT talking about.
I either believe you or God. I believe God. Didn’t God say I change not ? Why is God not changing so hard to come to terms with after all it was God who said I change not ?
 

JudgeRightly

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I either believe you or God.

Derf is saying to believe God, too, LN. The difference is that he's telling you look at the context instead of just isolating 3 words out of a verse to found your doctrine on.

I believe God.

So do we.

Didn’t God say I change not?

Which doesn't tell the entire story. The context adds important information that you're intentionally ignoring.

Why is God not changing so hard to come to terms with after all it was God who said I change not?

You say God doesn't change at all, ignoring the context of what is said.

We say God doesn't change in certain ways, which the context of the verse allows for, but changes in others which are supported by scripture.

Who's the one having problems coming to terms with what God said, again?
 

JudgeRightly

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And this next verse tells us something else... God's not changing here, that's for sure.

Verse 6 has God saying "I change not" in His righteous character and His commitment to keep His promises.

The next verse has God saying if Israel returns to Him, He will return to them. That's a change.

So either God contradicted Himself, or "I change not" is not meant to be taken woodenly literally as LN is doing.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

An EXCELLENT verse which shows that God WOULD do something, but man's will prevents Him from doing so.

It doesn't show a lack of change, it shows a WILLINGNESS on God's part TO change.
 
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Derf

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I either believe you or God. I believe God. Didn’t God say I change not ? Why is God not changing so hard to come to terms with after all it was God who said I change not ?
Here’s an anti-open theist article showing that God changes in some ways:
 

Leatherneck

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Derf is saying to believe God, too, LN. The difference is that he's telling you look at the context instead of just isolating 3 words out of a verse to found your doctrine on.



So do we.



Which doesn't tell the entire story. The context adds important information that you're intentionally ignoring.



You say God doesn't change at all, ignoring the context of what is said.

We say God doesn't change in certain ways, which the context of the verse allows for, but changes in others which are supported by scripture.

Who's the one having problems coming to terms with what God said, again?
You’re correct the added context you’re speaking of is the sons of Jacob weren’t destroyed because God does not change.I have no problem with what God said just as He said it.
 

JudgeRightly

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You’re correct the added context you’re speaking of is the sons of Jacob weren’t destroyed because God does not change.I have no problem with what God said just as He said it.

Haha, that's funny, you think I'm referring to the rest of the verse! Hahahaha!

NO YOU IDIOT! I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER AND EVEN THE ENTIRE REST OF THE BIBLE YOU DOLT!
 

JudgeRightly

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Talk about missing the forest for the trees!!!
 

Leatherneck

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Disrespect of TOL staff will not be tolerated. Rule 9.
Haha, that's funny, you think I'm referring to the rest of the verse! Hahahaha!

NO YOU IDIOT! I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER AND EVEN THE ENTIRE REST OF THE BIBLE YOU DOLT!
Haha, that's funny, you think I'm referring to the rest of the verse! Hahahaha!

NO YOU IDIOT! I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER AND EVEN THE ENTIRE REST OF THE BIBLE YOU DOLT!
All you have said is if you do not like a scripture contradict the scripture you do not like the meaning of with another scripture.You might want to look in a mirror if you want to see a real dolt.
 

JudgeRightly

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All you have said is if you do not like a scripture contradict the scripture you do not like the meaning of with another scripture.

This is bearing false witness, you liar!

I have NEVER said contradict scripture with another scripture.

SCRIPTURE IS CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF!

The only thing that is contradictory here is YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE with the REST of Scripture!

APOLOGISE for bearing false witness against me!

You might want to look in a mirror if you want to see a real dolt.

HYPOCRITE!
 

JudgeRightly

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Wow. At least you aren't too strict on this forum. That's a plus.

If you're hear just to take potshots at members of this forum, let alone staff, then just leave now.

I'm angry because I've spent the past how many pages of this thread making SOUND, LOGICAL ARGUMENTS, BACKED UP BY SCRIPTURE no less, and all he's done is simply repeat himself over and over again as if that defeats my (and Clete's) arguments!

It's EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING!
 

Clete

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Your argument was not based on the context of the verses I posted and many times not in the context of the verses you posted. Of course the source is relevant. If the source ignores the context of scripture to me they are irrelevant.How many times have you told me bye or as you say written me off ? Your word is just about as good as your understanding of scripture.
You are a flat out lying jerk! How much more context can be provided that the entire book of Jonah! And no, the source is not relevant. You are either lying or you're not! My opinion doesn't come into it. You are saying thing that no one who's mind works well enough to speak English could actaully believe are true. YOU KNOW what you are saying is false. That makes you a liar, whether I'm the only one willing to say it out loud or not.

And trust me, you have been well and truly written off. So far as I am concerned you are an enemy of the truth, an enemy of the gospel and an enemy of mine. You will receive nothing from me but that which you have demonstrated that you both deserve and desire. Gone is substantive two way discussion about anything important other than your own stupidity and dishonesty. You ignore what I say and repeat yourself. I can do that too. You'll get what you dish out spiced with the flavor of my pointing out your every lie.

Clete
 
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