On the omniscience of God

[JudgeRightly]

You cannot seem to accept or understand that while Jesus walked the earth that God the Father was in heaven and NOTHING for the Spirit of God changed, and not one verse of scripture says He changed.

God the Father prior to the incarnation was the Father of God the Son who had ONE nature.

God the Father after the incarnation was and forevermore will be the Father of God the Son who has TWO natures.

That's a change, Leatherneck, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

 

[Clete]

Oh, I'm making Clete unhappy. Woe is me.

You are truly delusional.

I come here in spite of you being here, Clete, because I am long-suffering, and because there are others here who actually aren't pigs.

Hypocrite.

You can whisper in someone's ear and get me banned, if I'm so hard for you to tolerate.

You aren't difficult to tolerate. You're a waste of time but so is most everyone else on this website. Accusing me a child abuse is a bridge too far, though. I won't put up with that.

That will be a work of yours that needs to be burned at the Bema Seat.

As if you're qualified to decide such things!

Who in the world do you think you are?

Two things in this world are true...

1. I will stand before Christ and Him alone and I will take whatever judgment He dispenses (as will you little miss hypocrite).
2. I will never answer to you for anything!

 

[Leatherneck]

God the Father prior to the incarnation was the Father of God the Son who had ONE nature.

God the Father after the incarnation was and forevermore will be the Father of God the Son who has TWO natures.

That's a change, Leatherneck, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Nope wrong God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit as per scripture and truth ,and you cannot provide ONE verse that says God ( Spirit) in heaven changed and that He is not immutable. What you do have is man’s philosophy and perversion of actual scripture.

Jhn 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him inspirit and in truth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nope wrong God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit

Irrelevant to the discussion.

as per scripture,and you cannot provide ONE verse that says God ( Spirit) in heaven changed and that He is not immutable.

I already did, you dope!

On the omniscience of God

Saying it doesn't make it so, Arial. In fact, it's worse than that. Saying time was created is, itself, illogical, because time is a PRECONDITION of creating. As Clete said: "Creation" of ANYTHING implies a "before" and "after." a sequence of events relative to each other, a "before the...

theologyonline.com

For example:

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. - Jonah 3:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah3:10&version=NKJV

And another:

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” - Genesis 6:5-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis6:5-7&version=NKJV

Those are changes, LN.

What you do have is man’s philosophy and perversion of actual scripture.

Quoting scripture is a perversion of scripture?

Get your head on straight, LN. Your stupidity is unbecoming.

 

[Leatherneck]

Men

Irrelevant to the discussion.



I already did, you dope!

On the omniscience of God

Saying it doesn't make it so, Arial. In fact, it's worse than that. Saying time was created is, itself, illogical, because time is a PRECONDITION of creating. As Clete said: "Creation" of ANYTHING implies a "before" and "after." a sequence of events relative to each other, a "before the...

theologyonline.com

For example:

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. - Jonah 3:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah3:10&version=NKJV

And another:

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” - Genesis 6:5-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis6:5-7&version=NKJV

Those are changes, LN.



Quoting scripture is a perversion of scripture?

Get your head on straight, LN. Your stupidity is unbecoming.

You equate how God rewards or corrects His creation as God changing and talk about my stupidity that is rich ? When you quote scripture out of context that is a perversion of scripture. So you believe John 4:24 is not revenant ? There is your problem you yank other scriptures out of context to bolster your error and ignore and call irrelevant those scriptures that could correct your error. Pride goes before a fall or do you not believe that scripture ?

 

[Clete]

You do know while Jesus was on earth that God the Father was unchanging in heaven right ?

No, not in the sense you likely mean it.

First of all, you're drawing a little too much of a distinction between God the Father and God the Son. The two are ONE God. There is only ONE God, Leatherneck and that God, the One who created every created thing is the One who BECAME flesh and dwelt among us and, more than that, He is the One who died at Calvary. And that death at Calvary is no ancillary point here. When Jesus died, He did so in every way. He was separated from the Father (Matthew 27:46) just before His physical death (John 19:30) and went to Paradise, (a place where He had not yet ever been, by the way).

(Incidentally, the separation that occurred in Matthew 27:46 would count as a change for the Father even if the premise of your question were granted.)

Also, I'm not familiar enough with you to have a grasp of how familiar you are with the doctrine of immutability and its origins and logical underpinnings and ramifications so let me just ask you this...

Are you familiar with all the various doctrines that are directly related to the idea that God is immutable? Doctrines like God's simplicity. It's the idea that God does not have parts. It implies, among other things, that your argument here about the Father remaining unchanged while the Son became flesh, cannot work because then Jesus would be a part of God. Such an idea explodes immutability into dust. Thus, your argument here undermines you own position.

A Calvinist theologian named Bavinck put it this way...

"Simplicity" here is the antonym of “compounded.” If God is composed of parts, like a body, or composed of genus (class) and differentiae (attributes of different species belonging to the same genus), substance and accidents, matter and form, potentiality and actuality, essence and existence, then his perfection, oneness, independence, and immutability cannot be maintained. - Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, Volume 2, 176​

​

So, in other words, you can't have it both ways. If you want to say that it was only God the Son who changed then either God the Son isn't God at all or God has parts and is therefore not immutable.

All of these doctrines, by the way, are all imported into Christianity from Greek philosophy. If Augustine hadn't all but worshiped Plato and Aristotle and then interpreted scripture based on the Classics, you wouldn't believe a syllable of any of this.

Mal 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed

This is one of only about three or four passages of scripture that Calvinists use as proof texts for immutability but it doesn't work. The passage here, (along with all the other passages commonly used for this same purpose), isn't saying that God doesn't change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER as the doctrine of immutability teaches. It's simply teaching that God is not capricious; that His character does not change. God is the same person with the same personality, character and temperament that He always has been and He will always be so.

Clete

 

[Leatherneck]

No, not in the sense you likely mean it.

First of all, you're drawing a little too much of a distinction between God the Father and God the Son. The two are ONE God. There is only ONE God, Leatherneck and that God, the One who created every created thing is the One who BECAME flesh and dwelt among us and, more than that, He is the One who died at Calvary. And that death at Calvary is no ancillary point here. When Jesus died, He did so in every way. He was separated from the Father (Matthew 27:46) just before His physical death (John 19:30) and went to Paradise, (a place where He had not yet ever been, by the way).

(Incidentally, the separation that occurred in Matthew 27:46 would count as a change for the Father even if the premise of your question were granted.)

Also, I'm not familiar enough with you to have a grasp of how familiar you are with the doctrine of immutability and its origins and logical underpinnings and ramifications so let me just ask you this...

Are you familiar with all the various doctrines that are directly related to the idea that God is immutable? Doctrines like God's simplicity. It's the idea that God does not have parts. It implies, among other things, that your argument here about the Father remaining unchanged while the Son became flesh, cannot work because then Jesus would be a part of God. Such an idea explodes immutability into dust. Thus, your argument here undermines you own position.

A Calvinist theologian named Bavinck put it this way...

"Simplicity" here is the antonym of “compounded.” If God is composed of parts, like a body, or composed of genus (class) and differentiae (attributes of different species belonging to the same genus), substance and accidents, matter and form, potentiality and actuality, essence and existence, then his perfection, oneness, independence, and immutability cannot be maintained. - Herman Bavinck, Reformed Dogmatics, Volume 2, 176​

​

So, in other words, you can't have it both ways. If you want to say that it was only God the Son who changed then either God the Son isn't God at all or God has parts and is therefore not immutable.

All of these doctrines, by the way, are all imported into Christianity from Greek philosophy. If Augustine hadn't all but worshiped Plato and Aristotle and then interpreted scripture based on the Classics, you wouldn't believe a syllable of any of this.



This is one of only about three or four passages of scripture that Calvinists use as proof texts for immutability but it doesn't work. The passage here, (along with all the other passages commonly used for this same purpose), isn't saying that God doesn't change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER as the doctrine of immutability teaches. It's simply teaching that God is not capricious; that His character does not change. God is the same person with the same personality, character and temperament that He always has been and He will always be so.

Clete

Clete, my quote feature doesn’t work on this iPhone I apologize. Based on your response if I am understanding you I have this question. Do you believe the Spirit of God died at Calvary ? If you do then who was Jesus talking to on the cross when He said my God my God why have YOU etc,and yes I believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

 

[Clete]

Men

You equate how God rewards or corrects His creation as God changing and talk about my stupidity that is rich ? When you quote scripture out of context that is a perversion of scripture. So you believe John 4:24 is not revenant ? There is your problem you yank other scriptures out of context to bolster your error and ignore and call irrelevant those scriptures that could correct your error. Pride goes before a fall or do you not believe that scripture ?

What does the word "repent" mean?

 

[Leatherneck]

What does the word "repent" mean?

Change direction obey and follow Jesus. Now do you believe the Spirit of God died at Calvary ? Just a thought: when Jesus created every created thing that was prior to Jesus being born as a man correct ?

 

[Clete]

Clete, my quote feature doesn’t work on this iPhone I apologize.

No problem, I'll work around it.

I can't imagine doing this from an iPhone! I'm pretty sure that would make me cuss!

Based on your response if I am understanding you I have this question. Do you believe the Spirit of God died at Calvary ?

I believe that the Creator God died at Calvary, not the Holy Spirit, if that's what you're getting at.

For clarity's sake let me just tell you that death, biblically speaking, does not mean to cease to exist. Death is one kind or another of spiritual separation. When your spirit is separated from the Father then you are spiritually dead. When your spirit separates from your body then you are physically dead. Christ died in both ways (and was resurrected in both ways as well).

If you do then who was Jesus talking to on the cross when He said my God my God why have YOU etc,

This question seems to answer itself, right?

and yes I believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

Then why believe in immutability?

Again, I've not had enough history with you and so don't be insulted by my asking this....

Do you understand that the doctrine of immutability isn't merely talking about God being a consistent person or anything else like that. The doctrine of immutability is born DIRECTLY from neo-platonic philosophy and it explicitly teaches that God CANNOT change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. It teaches that God is utterly static and that any and all talk about God's love toward the righteous or His anger toward evil is all semantics. None of that sort of thing actually means what we poor stupid feeble minded humans think it means. It's all one form or another of anthropomorphic language that cannot be understood to mean what it seems to mean because if it did then God would not be immutable. God cannot have a state of mind that is even slightly different now than it has ever been or God ceases to be God.

Change direction obey and follow Jesus.

No, what does the word "repent" itself mean? Take it out of the context of salvation and just give me a straight definition of the word itself.

If it helps, define the Hebrew word "nāḥam".

Now do you believe the Spirit of God died at Calvary ?

Answered above

Just a thought: when Jesus created every created thing that was prior to Jesus being born as a man correct ?

Long before, of course!

How is that relevant?

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

my quote feature doesn’t work on this iPhone

BB codes

The list of BB codes you can use to spice up the look of your messages. This page shows a list of all BB codes that are available.

theologyonline.com

 

[Leatherneck]

No problem, I'll work around it.

I can't imagine doing this from an iPhone! I'm pretty sure that would make me cuss!

I believe that the Creator God died at Calvary, not the Holy Spirit, if that's what you're getting at.

For clarity's sake let me just tell you that death, biblically speaking, does not mean to cease to exist. Death is one kind or another of spiritual separation. When your spirit is separated from the Father then you are spiritually dead. When your spirit separates from your body then you are physically dead. Christ died in both ways (and was resurrected in both ways as well).


This question seems to answer itself, right?


Then why believe in immutability?

Again, I've not had enough history with you and so don't be insulted by my asking this....

Do you understand that the doctrine of immutability isn't merely talking about God being a consistent person or anything else like that. The doctrine of immutability is born DIRECTLY from neo-platonic philosophy and it explicitly teaches that God CANNOT change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. It teaches that God is utterly static and that any and all talk about God's love toward the righteous or His anger toward evil is all semantics. None of that sort of thing actually means what we poor stupid feeble minded humans think it means. It's all one form or another of anthropomorphic language that cannot be understood to mean what it seems to mean because if it did then God would not be immutable. God cannot have a state of mind that is even slightly different now than it has ever been or God ceases to be God.


No, what does the word "repent" itself mean? Take it out of the context of salvation and just give me a straight definition of the word itself.

If it helps, define the Hebrew word "nāḥam".


Answered above


Long before, of course!

How is that relevant?

Clete

Clete, I formed my belief in the immutability of God from scripture. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17).

 

[Leatherneck]

No problem, I'll work around it.

I can't imagine doing this from an iPhone! I'm pretty sure that would make me cuss!

I believe that the Creator God died at Calvary, not the Holy Spirit, if that's what you're getting at.

For clarity's sake let me just tell you that death, biblically speaking, does not mean to cease to exist. Death is one kind or another of spiritual separation. When your spirit is separated from the Father then you are spiritually dead. When your spirit separates from your body then you are physically dead. Christ died in both ways (and was resurrected in both ways as well).


This question seems to answer itself, right?


Then why believe in immutability?

Again, I've not had enough history with you and so don't be insulted by my asking this....

Do you understand that the doctrine of immutability isn't merely talking about God being a consistent person or anything else like that. The doctrine of immutability is born DIRECTLY from neo-platonic philosophy and it explicitly teaches that God CANNOT change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. It teaches that God is utterly static and that any and all talk about God's love toward the righteous or His anger toward evil is all semantics. None of that sort of thing actually means what we poor stupid feeble minded humans think it means. It's all one form or another of anthropomorphic language that cannot be understood to mean what it seems to mean because if it did then God would not be immutable. God cannot have a state of mind that is even slightly different now than it has ever been or God ceases to be God.


No, what does the word "repent" itself mean? Take it out of the context of salvation and just give me a straight definition of the word itself.

If it helps, define the Hebrew word "nāḥam".


Answered above


Long before, of course!

How is that relevant?

Clete

Repent means to “return”.

 

[Clete]

Clete, I formed my belief in the immutability of God from scripture.

No, you didn't. You believe it because someone taught it to you. They believe because someone taught it to them and so on until you get to Augustine who learned it from Bishop Ambros of Milan who taught Augustine how to interpret the bible in light of the Greek Classics.

The idea the God is immutable is so foreign to scripture that Augustine ridiculed it as childish fantasy because Genesis protrays God as someone who changes His mind (Genesis 6:6 and elsewhere). He flatly refused to become a Christian precisely because the plain reading of scripture teaches that God is not immutable.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17).

This is proof text number two of usually only three that most people can come up with to support the idea that God is immutable. Proof texting is the closest you will ever come to making any argument that the bible teaches such a thing. By "proof texting" I mean presenting isolated, out of context passages that support an a priori doctrine that is brought to that scripture, not derived from it.

James 1:17 is saying the same thing as the last proof text you cited. God's character does not change. He is the same person with the same personality, temperament, etc yesterday, today and forever.

Why are you only answering part of the questions I ask?

Repent means to “return”.

Okay, I can't tell if I'm doing a bad job of asking the question or what so forget about answering the question let me just tell you what the point is.

Literally "repent" means to change direction. When used in the context of something mental it means to change your mind, to be sorry, rue or to suffer grief.

Do you know how many times the bible says God repented? It's not zero!

Let's use Jonah since that's already been brought up in the thread. It isn't the only time but we don't have to look at them all....

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

​

Now, I've just quoted the one sentence but you can look at however much context you want to look at because the ENTIRE BOOK of Jonah is specifically about God changing His mind! That's the theme of the entire book! That's why Jonah didn't want to go, that's why Jonah was angry, that's the main point of the entire book. God responds when people repent by repenting Himself.

In addition to the whole book of Jonah we have the testimony of Jeremiah who explicitly teaches this exact same principle in chapter 18...

Jeremiah 18: 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;​

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.​

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;​

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

​

Passages such as these and others like Genesis 6:6 are the reason Augustine refused to become a Christian for decades. What do you do with them? Do you right off such passages are figures of speech? How can a whole book of the bible be one gigantic figure of speech? And how you deal with these passages doesn't touch how you deal with the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son! How is it possible to read the bible and come away thinking that God is anything similar to immutable?

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

You are truly delusional.

If you say so.

Hypocrite.

If you say so.

You aren't difficult to tolerate. You're a waste of time but so is most everyone else on this website.

You're so much better than everyone else.

Accusing me a child abuse is a bridge too far, though. I won't put up with that.

You lie. I said IF you beat your kids black and blue, they could still run out in front of a car.

Yet, I did put up with you saying I was a horrible mother, in fact you gave me some information about how to be a good parent.
Waaaah.....Waaaaah.....I won't put up with that.

As if you're qualified to decide such things!

Who in the world do you think you are?

Two things in this world are true...

1. I will stand before Christ and Him alone and I will take whatever judgment He dispenses (as will you little miss hypocrite).
2. I will never answer to you for anything!

Yep, I sure did make Clete mad!

I am sorry to see you getting so angry, Clete.
It's actually sad to see.

 

[Leatherneck]

No, you didn't. You believe it because someone taught it to you. They believe because someone taught it to them and so on until you get to Augustine who learned it from Bishop Ambros of Milan who taught Augustine how to interpret the bible in light of the Greek Classics.

The idea the God is immutable is so foreign to scripture that Augustine ridiculed it as childish fantasy because Genesis protrays God as someone who changes His mind (Genesis 6:6 and elsewhere). He flatly refused to become a Christian precisely because the plain reading of scripture teaches that God is not immutable.



This is proof text number two of usually only three that most people can come up with to support the idea that God is immutable. Proof texting is the closest you will ever come to making any argument that the bible teaches such a thing. By "proof texting" I mean presenting isolated, out of context passages that support an a priori doctrine that is brought to that scripture, not derived from it.

James 1:17 is saying the same thing as the last proof text you cited. God's character does not change. He is the same person with the same personality, temperament, etc yesterday, today and forever.

Why are you only answering part of the questions I ask?


Okay, I can't tell if I'm doing a bad job of asking the question or what so forget about answering the question let me just tell you what the point is.

Literally "repent" means to change direction. When used in the context of something mental it means to change your mind, to be sorry, rue or to suffer grief.

Do you know how many times the bible says God repented? It's not zero!

Let's use Jonah since that's already been brought up in the thread. It isn't the only time but we don't have to look at them all....

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

​

Now, I've just quoted the one sentence but you can look at however much context you want to look at because the ENTIRE BOOK of Jonah is specifically about God changing His mind! That's the theme of the entire book! That's why Jonah didn't want to go, that's why Jonah was angry, that's the main point of the entire book. God responds when people repent by repenting Himself.

In addition to the whole book of Jonah we have the testimony of Jeremiah who explicitly teaches this exact same principle in chapter 18...

Jeremiah 18: 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;​

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.​

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;​

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

​

Passages such as these and others like Genesis 6:6 are the reason Augustine refused to become a Christian for decades. What do you do with them? Do you right off such passages are figures of speech? How can a whole book of the bible be one gigantic figure of speech? And how you deal with these passages doesn't touch how you deal with the incarnation, death and resurrection of God the Son! How is it possible to read the bible and come away thinking that God is anything similar to immutable?

Clete

You really don’t believe that God already knew that the people in Nineveh would repent ? When God said Adam where are you do you believe God didn’t know where Adam was ? Didn’t Jesus say a sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky that God doesn’t know about it ,or that God knows the number of the hairs on our head ? Again I learned about immutability from scripture, but today everything is so dumbed down to placate everyone that nothing means what it says. If you you read Genesis 6:6 it says it repented the Lord that He had made man on earth, and it grieved Him at His heart. I believe in that context repented= grieved or sorrow.
The Bible rarely speaks of God experiencing "regret." The Hebrew word used here is yin'nā'hem, from the root word nacham. The word is exclusively about emotions: a feeling of pain, sadness, or unhappiness. The word does not imply that God feels He has made a mistake, or that He wishes to have done differently. It is possible to experience grief and "regret," as used here, without implying an error. Any parent who has held a crying, upset child as they receive a shot has experienced exactly that. Such a parent is "grieved" over the pain, but has no illusions that this was the wrong decision.

However, this verse does mean God is unhappy with the current state of man. This is a low point in the history of humanity. God is troubled. He is "grieved," or "pained," by the outcome of His act of creation. The men and women, however, do not grieve their own sin. They do not repent. God's grief stands in great contrast to that of His creatures, who blindly continue to indulge in every sinful thought, action, and word that begins in their hearts and minds. https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/6/Genesis-6-6.html

 

[glorydaz]

You really don’t believe that God already knew that the people in Nineveh would repent ? When God said Adam where are you do you believe God didn’t know where Adam was ? Didn’t Jesus say a sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky that God doesn’t know about it ,or that God knows the number of the hairs on our head ? Again I learned about immutability from scripture, but today everything is so dumbed down to placate everyone that nothing means what it says. If you you read Genesis 6:6 it says it repented the Lord that He had made man on earth, and it grieved Him at His heart. I believe in that context repented= grieved or sorrow.
The Bible rarely speaks of God experiencing "regret." The Hebrew word used here is yin'nā'hem, from the root word nacham. The word is exclusively about emotions: a feeling of pain, sadness, or unhappiness. The word does not imply that God feels He has made a mistake, or that He wishes to have done differently. It is possible to experience grief and "regret," as used here, without implying an error. Any parent who has held a crying, upset child as they receive a shot has experienced exactly that. Such a parent is "grieved" over the pain, but has no illusions that this was the wrong decision.

However, this verse does mean God is unhappy with the current state of man. This is a low point in the history of humanity. God is troubled. He is "grieved," or "pained," by the outcome of His act of creation. The men and women, however, do not grieve their own sin. They do not repent. God's grief stands in great contrast to that of His creatures, who blindly continue to indulge in every sinful thought, action, and word that begins in their hearts and minds. https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/6/Genesis-6-6.html

Yes, it reminds me of this verse.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[Clete]

You really don’t believe that God already knew that the people in Nineveh would repent ?

I believe what the bible teaches.

When God said Adam where are you do you believe God didn’t know where Adam was ?

I believe that God was capable of given Adam and Eve privacy. Why not?
Do you believe that God is required to be a first person eye ball witness to every vile act that occurs in the back rooms of gay bars? I don't! The bible certainly doesn't teach that He has to.

God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable. That's as far as the bible goes, that's as far as I go.

Didn’t Jesus say a sparrow doesn’t fall from the sky that God doesn’t know about it ,or that God knows the number of the hairs on our head ?

Like I said, God knows what He wants to know and can find out anything knowable that He doesn't already know.

This brings up another passage in Genesis that Augustine didn't like...

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.​

Again I learned about immutability from scripture, but today everything is so dumbed down to placate everyone that nothing means what it says.

No, Leatherneck you flatly did NOT learn immutability from scripture. You learned it from a person. That's why you cite the same two or three isolated sentences that every other person in Christiandom who believe this malarkey cites.

That assertion is based on the assumption that we are talking about the same thing. If you believe that God doesn't change in terms of who He is (i.e. what sort of person He is - living, personal, righteous, loving, just, etc) but that other kinds of change happen throughout the bible (like changing His mind based on what people do or changing into a human being and then dying and then raising from the dead with a new glorified body that He hadn't ever had before, etc), then you and I are in agreement and we can stop the debate. But if you believe in the sort of immutability taught by Calvinists and other Augustinian theologians (like Catholics) then you DEFINITELY DID NOT learn that from reading the bible because it just isn't in there.

If you you read Genesis 6:6 it says it repented the Lord that He had made man on earth, and it grieved Him at His heart. I believe in that context repented= grieved.

Thank you for conceding the debate!

You cannot believe that in one passage God calls the entire creation "very good" and then five chapters later He says that the fact the He created man on Earth grieved Him AND believe that God cannot change!

Going from "Wow, I did great!" to "This sucks" is a change, Leatherneck! It's just exactly the sort of change that the doctrine of immutability teaches cannot happen! There is a specific term for this particular aspect of immutability. It's called Impassibility. It means that God's state of mind is immutable and thus He has no passions and therefore cannot alter His feelings toward anyone or anything. This is because, they say, that God is simple, that is He has no parts. All of His attributes are Him. There is no distinction between God and His attributes, He is one unified, immutable whole.

It's all just a bunch of neo platonic mumbo-jumbo that has nothing to do with the God presented to us by Moses, Jeremiah or any other biblical author.

Clete

 

[Leatherneck]

I believe what the bible teaches.


I believe that God was capable of given Adam and Eve privacy. Why not?
Do you believe that God is required to be a first person eye ball witness to every vile act that occurs in the back rooms of gay bars? I don't! The bible certainly doesn't teach that He has to.

God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable. That's as far as the bible goes, that's as far as I go.


Like I said, God knows what He wants to know and can find out anything knowable that He doesn't already know.

This brings up another passage in Genesis that Augustine didn't like...

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.​

No, Leatherneck you flatly did NOT learn immutability from scripture. You learned it from a person. That's why you cite the same two or three isolated sentences that every other person in Christiandom who believe this malarkey cites.

That assertion is based on the assumption that we are talking about the same thing. If you believe that God doesn't change in terms of who He is (i.e. what sort of person He is - living, personal, righteous, loving, just, etc) but that other kinds of change happen throughout the bible (like changing His mind based on what people do or changing into a human being and then dying and then raising from the dead with a new glorified body that He hadn't ever had before, etc), then you and I are in agreement and we can stop the debate. But if you believe in the sort of immutability taught by Calvinists and other Augustinian theologians (like Catholics) then you DEFINITELY DID NOT learn that from reading the bible because it just isn't in there.


Thank you for conceding the debate!

You cannot believe that in one passage God calls the entire creation "very good" and then five chapters later He says that the fact the He created man on Earth grieved Him AND believe that God cannot change!

Going from "Wow, I did great!" to "This sucks" is a change, Leatherneck! It's just exactly the sort of change that the doctrine of immutability teaches cannot happen! There is a specific term for this particular aspect of immutability. It's called Impassibility. It means that God's state of mind is immutable and thus He has no passions and therefore cannot alter His feelings toward anyone or anything. This is because, they say, that God is simple, that is He has no parts. All of His attributes are Him. There is no distinction between God and His attributes, He is one unified, immutable whole.

It's all just a bunch of neo platonic mumbo-jumbo that has nothing to do with the God presented to us by Moses, Jeremiah or any other biblical author.

Clete

I agree that we disagree. I believe that you don’t recognize that the Spirit of God is immutable-all seeing-all knowing , because that you don’t separate that while Jesus walked the earth the Spirit of God who is immutable was in heaven unchanging- eternal - no shadows-no turning from eternity past to eternity future.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree that we disagree. I believe that you don’t recognize that the Spirit of God is immutable-all seeing-all knowing , because that you don’t separate that while Jesus walked the earth the Spirit of God who is immutable was in heaven unchanging- eternal - no shadows-no turning from eternity past to eternity future.

I'm one who believes that God seeing good in the creation of Adam, and being grieved at what man is capable of is ALL part of his character. He does not change, He is so much bigger than man can imagine.