NFL 2016

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Nihilo

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Championships matter when you're distinguishing between fairly even considerations else.
We disagree, no hard feelings. Championships matter period, and then we'll talk about all the supporting statistics to sort out the best from the others.
But those championships should mostly matter in how the qb played them.
See, since I take the opposite view as you, the championships themselves dictate how the QB and the whole team played them.
Bradshaw played those games better than Brady has, better than any of the recent, inarguably great qbs have.
If he hadn't, yet still won, then all that means is that he isn't as good as Montana, on which we agree anyway.
But few talk about him as the greatest. If it was about rings every conversation would begin with Montana and Bradshaw, but you forgot to even include him.
I was waiting for someone else to bring him up. If you take now his rings along with Montana's, Brady's, and the Manning brother's, you've got 16 of 50 between just them. That's 32% of all championship rings on just 4 hands (1/2 a hand each for Eli and Peyton ;)).
Most people would. And there is your rebuttal in a nutshell.
I really don't see how this rebuts that championships matter.
They do when it's required. And sometimes it still doesn't matter. Kurt Warner led a late, game winning drive against his SB opponent that was promptly given away by his lame defense. Put the right defense on the field and he has another ring and becomes the first qb to win a SB with two teams, instead of Peyton.
And, if you subtract Belichick's ego from the man, you've got Brady with 5 or 6 rings by now. The team and the team is led onfield by their QB, must overcome all in order to secure a championship, even if their challenge is from their own coach or their own defense, or their own QB. Winning doesn't just happen. Nobody wins championships by default.
And his play would have been exactly the same.
I like Peyton and I'm happy for him and his family. I previously wished that he'd win another ring and then ride off into the sunset, but after watching him through the tournament this year, he can keep right on playing. :)
 

Nihilo

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This is the untrue clichés I am talking about. What about the first three quarters?
OK, so you're saying that the best are those who never have to play in a close 4th quarter, and who never lose. Fine. I agree.
Montana was in a ball cap in the 4th quarter. Elway was not.
Right, in that one game.
The Broncos and Nuggets had the greatest home field advantage. Teams run out of gas. This is why the Pats were taking oxygen in the first quarter. To try and stop it.
Or, it was because their roster didn't arrive in the thin air until it was too late to allow their human bodies to adjust to the lower oxygen content there. As I mentioned.
Even Tim Tebow had 4th quarter comebacks in Denver.
Yup.
Only 19 of Elway's 50 comebacks were on the road. For random comparison, Big Ben has 18 on the road out of 38 total. Roethlisberger has been clutch as anybody.
He's a joy to watch.
I had to look up Montana. He had 23 on the road out of 34.
So there were 34 games where Montana wasn't good enough to evade a close 4th quarter.
 

Nihilo

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It's a team sport, as everybody has pointed out, and as I agree. You want to believe that there's nothing different between a QB who wins championships and one who doesn't. Fine. You can do that, as an American.

For me, I'll take that if the game's close in the 4th quarter, that the teams themselves are about evenly matched. That means the 4th quarter is about who's got the better QB. And when Brady started playing in 2001, it was like somebody flipped the lightswitch from Bledsoe. Games that Bledsoe would typically lose Brady was suddenly winning. It was that stark. His teams (him included) were good enough to make the 4th quarter close; so were Bledsoe's teams; the game was still undecided when they got into the 4th quarter.

Brady won those games. Bledsoe lost. I've argued about Belichick's ego in this thread---his trading Bledsoe to a team within his own division?---that wasn't ego; that wasn't an ego mistake (as opposed to a rookie mistake)---Brady never lost to Bledsoe. Never. 'Played him twice, every season.

Never.

I'm a homer, yup. But it don't mean that what I saw didn't happen. This guy got behind center and all the sudden the Patriots were a winning team---a censored multiple SB winning team. Suddenly.

'You don't see it in the stats? 'You just see, quote-unquote, mediocrity? Please. I didn't take you for such a numbers guy. You can't see even what's happening on the field. I assume you've played the game, as I have, so it's not complete armchair QB'ing, like it would be if a lady, for instance, were weighing in on the game. Assuming you have---don't you remember what it's like to play with, or play against, or be: a winner? A championship winner. A multiple, sustained, championship winner. Surely, you've run into one or two. They aren't mythical creatures, their only limitation is the limit of their God-given talent, which every single one of them "goes all-in" on, and maximizes.

We're talking about those guys. The winners, the sustained multiple championship winners, and when a team fights a team through three quarters to a stalemate, then who wins that contest, has a better QB. And the higher the stakes, the higher the weightings on that performance. And Montana beats all. No doubt. It is a serious shame that we couldn't watch him more. But Brady is on the same liquor shelf as Montana, up there with Bradshaw. Champions.

They're champions. Brady's a champion. You say what you will about his coach, I certainly have. He is a champion. He belongs in the same conversation with Montana, though Montana is the gold standard in SB/whole season performance.

Getting cut down in the playoffs, like in 2011 . . . that's not what champions do, neither is losing to GIA after doing everything to beat them for a meaningless 16-0 when 15-1 would've been just fine. So, that's not how a champion is going to be remembered. We're going to remember the champion as a champion, like Peyton, like Seinfeld. He'll go out on top, so of course, Brady the champion was going to win at least one more. We couldn't remember him for 18-1. He had to win again, and he did. Maybe he will again. He certainly could have already won 5---both losses to GIA hinged on veritable miracle plays, and we almost lost this last one to another miracle play, but fortunately, in this game, we received a miracle play in return. Phew.

'You rather imply that Peyton's season was inferior to Brady's---what a joke. In the single game this year where he lined up against Brady, that mattered, his team won, in a tightly contested 4th quarter. Manning outplayed Brady in that game---their teams, as most anybody can tell---were evenly matched. It came down to Brady versus Manning, and Brady lost, and Manning won. Brady couldn't overcome his two interceptions. Joe Montana didn't throw a single interception in all four of his---and I do mean 'his'---SBs. So Montana made it easy for himself. He was never trying to atone for his own sins. He didn't have any. What Brady's doing is the best that a mortal can do.

Homer. Guilty as charged.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
FIRST ROUND:

1. Tennessee Titans
2. Cleveland Browns
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Dallas Cowboys
5. Jacksonville Jaguars
6. Baltimore Ravens
7. San Francisco 49ers
8. Miami Dolphins
9. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
10. New York Giants
11. Chicago Bears
12. New Orleans Saints
13. Philadelphia Eagles
14. Oakland Raiders
15. Los Angeles Rams
16. Detroit Lions
17. Atlanta Falcons
18. Indianapolis Colts
19. Buffalo Bills
20. New York Jets
21. Washington
22. Houston Texans
23. Minnesota Vikings
24. Cincinnati Bengals
25. Seattle Seahawks
26. Green Bay Packers
27. Pittsburgh Steelers
28. Kansas City Chiefs
29. Arizona Cardinals
30. Carolina Panthers
31. Denver Broncos

SECOND ROUND:

32. Cleveland Browns
33. Tennessee Titans
34. Dallas Cowboys
35. San Diego Chargers
36. Baltimore Ravens
37. San Francisco 49ers
38. Jacksonville Jaguars
39. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
40. New York Giants
41. Chicago Bears
42. Miami Dolphins
43. Los Angeles Rams (via Philadelphia)
44. Oakland Raiders
45. Los Angeles Rams
46. Detroit Lions
47. New Orleans Saints
48. Indianapolis Colts
49. Buffalo Bills
50. Atlanta Falcons
51. New York Jets
52. Houston Texans
53. Washington
54. Minnesota Vikings
55. Cincinnati Bengals
56. Seattle Seahawks
57. Green Bay Packers
58. Pittsburgh Steelers
59. Kansas City Chiefs
60. New England Patriots
61. Arizona Cardinals
62. Carolina Panthers
63. Denver Broncos

THIRD ROUND:

64. Tennessee Titans
65. Cleveland Browns
66. San Diego Chargers
67. Dallas Cowboys
68. San Francisco 49ers
69. Jacksonville Jaguars
70. Baltimore Ravens
71. New York Giants
72. Chicago Bears
73. Miami Dolphins
74. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
75. Oakland Raiders
76. Los Angeles Rams
77. Philadelphia Eagles
78. New Orleans Saints
79. Philadelphia Eagles
80. Buffalo Bills
81. Atlanta Falcons
82. Indianapolis Colts
83. New York Jets
84. Washington
85. Houston Texans
86. Minnesota Vikings
87. Cincinnati Bengals
88. Green Bay Packers
89. Pittsburgh Steelers
90. Seattle Seahawks
91. Kansas City Chiefs
92. New England Patriots
93. Arizona Cardinals
94. Carolina Panthers
95. Denver Broncos
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
And because of one blind bat, here is detailed report on the cheaters.

Interviews by ESPN The Magazine and Outside the Lines with more than 90 league officials, owners, team executives and coaches, current and former Patriots coaches, staffers and players, and reviews of previously undisclosed private notes from key meetings, show that Spygate is the centerpiece of a long, secret history between Goodell's NFL, which declined comment for this story, and Kraft's Patriots. The diametrically opposed way the inquiries were managed by Goodell -- and, more importantly, perceived by his bosses -- reveals much about how and why NFL punishment is often dispensed. The widespread perception that Goodell gave the Patriots a break on Spygate, followed by the NFL's stonewalling of a potential congressional investigation into the matter, shaped owners' expectations of what needed to be done by 345 Park Ave. on Deflategate.​

Here is the difference between college football that some people can't stand and the NFL. The Patriots did far worse than what USC did when the NCAA took away the wins and said give the trophy back. Far worse. A booster paid the rent for Reggie Bush's dad. That isn't even effecting play like stealing playbooks and signals. And filming the walk through pre-Super Bowl practice.
 

Nihilo

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And because of one blind bat, here is detailed report on the cheaters.

Interviews by ESPN The Magazine and Outside the Lines with more than 90 league officials, owners, team executives and coaches, current and former Patriots coaches, staffers and players, and reviews of previously undisclosed private notes from key meetings, show that Spygate is the centerpiece of a long, secret history between Goodell's NFL, which declined comment for this story, and Kraft's Patriots. The diametrically opposed way the inquiries were managed by Goodell -- and, more importantly, perceived by his bosses -- reveals much about how and why NFL punishment is often dispensed. The widespread perception that Goodell gave the Patriots a break on Spygate, followed by the NFL's stonewalling of a potential congressional investigation into the matter, shaped owners' expectations of what needed to be done by 345 Park Ave. on Deflategate.​

Here is the difference between college football that some people can't stand and the NFL. The Patriots did far worse than what USC did when the NCAA took away the wins and said give the trophy back. Far worse. A booster paid the rent for Reggie Bush's dad. That isn't even effecting play like stealing playbooks and signals. And filming the walk through pre-Super Bowl practice.
Hey, are you trying to say that I don't think that Belichick did anything wrong? I didn't, and I won't.

And that's not on Brady. If it weren't for the obvious drop in his performance from before the "deflategate" scandal broke, to after, then we wouldn't even be talking about it right now.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Another 29 year old NFL player retires. Detroit is about to lose its long time star at wr at the age of 30. Players are paying attention to the head trauma issues. I wonder what the NFL is going to look like in ten years...I wonder if there will be an NFL inside of twenty.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I wonder who the Boys will pick with such a high draft spot. The QB position is surprisingly deep, although I don't think there are any NFL ready talents. The FCS QB is the most confusing. He has never seen a legitimate pass rush.
 

Quetzal

New member
Another 29 year old NFL player retires. Detroit is about to lose its long time star at wr at the age of 30. Players are paying attention to the head trauma issues. I wonder what the NFL is going to look like in ten years...I wonder if there will be an NFL inside of twenty.
Good news for Stafford and company is that Tate has the potential to be great. In fact, I believe it was two seasons ago he did well when Megatron was out for awhile.
 

Nihilo

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Another 29 year old NFL player retires. Detroit is about to lose its long time star at wr at the age of 30. Players are paying attention to the head trauma issues. I wonder what the NFL is going to look like in ten years...I wonder if there will be an NFL inside of twenty.
It's interesting watching the technology progress with the game. I read or heard someone say that modern football helmets do an exceptionally good job at what they're actually designed to do, which is to prevent skull fractures. Once you stamp out the fire, only then can you focus on the embers.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The Rams have released James Laurinaitis, Christ Long, and James Cook. The Steelers Heath Miller is hanging it up after 11 seasons. He is the most productive tight end the Steelers have had.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
SCOUTS INC.'S TOP 32 FOR 2016

1. Joey Bosa* DE Ohio State 97
2. Jalen Ramsey* CB Florida St 94
3. Laremy Tunsil* OT Mississippi 93
4. V. Hargreaves I.* CB Florida 93
5. Ronnie Stanley OT Notre Dame 92
6. DeForest Buckner DE Oregon 92
7. Sheldon Rankins DT Louisville 92
8. Carson Wentz QB N Dakota St 92
9. Jared Goff* QB California 92
10. Reggie Ragland ILB Alabama 92
11. Myles Jack* OLB UCLA 92
12. A'Shawn Robinson* DT Alabama 92
13. Jack Conklin* OT Michigan St 91
14. Jaylon Smith* OLB Notre Dame 91
15. Ezekiel Elliott* RB Ohio State 91
16. Jarran Reed DT Alabama 91
17. Laquon Treadwell* WR Mississippi 91
18. Vonn Bell* S Ohio State 90
19. Robert Nkemdiche* DT Mississippi 90
20. Hunter Henry* TE Arkansas 90
21. Shaq Lawson* DE Clemson 90
22. Taylor Decker OT Ohio State 89
23. Eli Apple* CB Ohio State 89
24. Andrew Billings* DT Baylor 89
25. Darron Lee* OLB Ohio State 89
26. M. Alexander* CB Clemson 88
27. Paxton Lynch* QB Memphis 89
28. Vernon Butler DT Louisiana Tech 88
29. Leonard Floyd* OLB Georgia 88
30. Kevin Dodd* DE Clemson 88
31. Chris Jones DT Miss. St 88
32. Noah Spence* OLB E Kentucky 87

This is one collective opinion. There are many out there.
 
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