John Calvin's Nazi God.

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TulipBee

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I'm sure RP has been combating Calvinism for years in his own way, by his own analysis. TOL is an open forum in the public domain, and is a discussion board that allows a broad range of religious viewpoints, opinions and beliefs to be "discussed", especially here in the 'Religion' section. There is an 'exclusive Christian Theology' sub-forum here, if you want to be involved in that category of theology. Otherwise, here you will be confronted with diverse and sundry topics, and posters of all kinds and stripes.

TOL is NOT a 'urantia hangout',....you're assumption is ridiculous. Hundreds of different topics are allows and featured on this forum, and only ONE pro exploratory Urantia Book Thread is currently being allowed on the forum,...that's FAR from TOL becoming a UB forum. - this is comical. I think you need to get out a little more :) - my commentary on that thread stands, as well, regarding that particular text, which is what that thread is about, for those wanting to engage all the subjects within its 'context'. That's what 'discussion' is.

My commentary on TULIP and associated concepts also holds, as posited here and so many related threads already, and are open and available for anyone wishing to engage the topics.

My expose' on 'Preterition' still holds too, since a 'god' who PASSES OVER souls and leaves them to ROT in hell (whatever 'hell' is imagined or defined' by your religious imagination) is a 'god' that is NOT worthy of worship. - both 'hyper' and 'soft' forms of Calvinism hold to 'preterition', the latter form has just 'softened' and 'sanitized' it some. That's it. - nice try, but you still have a capricious god whose love is imperfect, impartial and randomly selective, to say nothing of 'impotent'.
According to the Bible you don't believe, my God is the only God.

Here, we use the Bible as our source of truths.


You use urantian book as your source of truths. One belongs here and one does not.

Here, we should join the rest of the world and do something about fake news. Some sites loose its members when folks are increasingly becoming more aware of fake news. Your unfamiliar celestials gives you fake news. Bible does not even though you say it does.
 
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TulipBee

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Most Ironic silent quote ever.
When one backs his point with actual Bible quotes, God does the convincing, His way. If you love Jesus, let the Word sink in. It's the devil that goes silent and thats how you see it. You're on Lucifer's side till you're convinced of your sins.

Even the Arminian Dr Robert Picirilli got convicted of his errors like yours

16406735_10208628209209801_7887973446450949265_n.jpg
 
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God's Truth

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I certainly didn't understand Calvinism for a very long time. It is an affront to ego and self-sense of the world as we see it. I however knew too many godly men who were Calvinists so never got this vitriolic and thin in my assessments. It might do for you to spend more time in prayer lest you find yourself kicking against God very God...that is unless your view of God has you with an incredibly high opinion of yourself. Some on here are exactly that arrogant. I pray I'm never that guy. If you can assail my views, for Christ's sake, good. Serve instead of attack. You are not looking like a servant of the Most High with such as this, imho. -Lon

When I was a baby Christian, there were some people who tried to get me to believe in Calvinism.

I didn't understand it, and when I did, I spent a couple of weeks barely eating and sleeping as I studied God's Word. I wanted to know for sure if this was God's Truth or not, because I only want God's Truth.

God showed me that it was NOT His Truth.

Calvinism goes against many scriptures; and many scriptures it misunderstands and God has revealed to me what those scriptures really mean.
 

God's Truth

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Robert Pate says Calvin's God is a Nazi God, but if you look more closely at Robert's God, his God is worse than a Nazi God. Pate says God condemns me for obeying Him for believing we have to obey.

Can you image being given orders and then killed because you did what you were told to do?! That is Pate's God.
 

meshak

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I however knew too many godly men who were Calvinists so never got this vitriolic and thin in my assessments.

Your leader Calvin was godly man who practiced like Pharisee of Jesus' time?

Your starting point of studying Calvin's teaching was way off, friend.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Your discernment wont take heed of Jesus' admonishment and warning.

You should study what Jesus says instead of being a expert in Calvin's doctrines.

blessings and peace in Christ.
 

Robert Pate

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Robert Pate says Calvin's God is a Nazi God, but if you look more closely at Robert's God, his God is worse than a Nazi God. Pate says God condemns me for obeying Him for believing we have to obey.

Can you image being given orders and then killed because you did what you were told to do?! That is Pate's God.

You will be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't I" group, Matthew 7:21-23. Paul says that you are corrupt and that you need to be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. You don't believe Paul.
 

God's Truth

New member
You will be in the "Lord, Lord, didn't I" group, Matthew 7:21-23.

I have already explained that scripture to you many times.

Jesus is NOT condemning them for OBEYING HIM!

He is condemning them for doing what you do, and that is for not repenting of your sins.

Read the scripture again and you might see how Jesus calls them evildoers. That means they did not repent of their sins.


Paul says that you are corrupt and that you need to be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. You don't believe Paul.

Paul says no such thing to me.

Paul was speaking about when Jesus comes again and how our decaying bodies will be gone and we will be given new bodies that do not decay.
 

Robert Pate

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I have already explained that scripture to you many times.

Jesus is NOT condemning them for OBEYING HIM!

He is condemning them for doing what you do, and that is for not repenting of your sins.

Read the scripture again and you might see how Jesus calls them evildoers. That means they did not repent of their sins.




Paul says no such thing to me.

Paul was speaking about when Jesus comes again and how our decaying bodies will be gone and we will be given new bodies that do not decay.

You are in denial of what the scripture is saying. Paul also said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. That includes you the hypocrite.
 

God's Truth

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You are in denial of what the scripture is saying. Paul also said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. That includes you the hypocrite.

Paul is quoting the Old Testament time when no one was righteous.

THAT does NOT mean non were ever righteous.

You do not even know what and why Paul quoted that.

Paul was showing that Jews were sinners too.
 

Robert Pate

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Paul is quoting the Old Testament time when no one was righteous.

THAT does NOT mean non were ever righteous.

You do not even know what and why Paul quoted that.

Paul was showing that Jews were sinners too.

What do you think that the word "NONE" means?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Arminius was not an Arminian

Arminius was not an Arminian

When one backs his point with actual Bible quotes, God does the convincing, His way. If you love Jesus, let the Word sink in. It's the devil that goes silent and thats how you see it. You're on Lucifer's side till you're convinced of your sins.

Even the Arminian Dr Robert Picirilli got convicted of his errors like yours
Dr. Picirilli advocates classical Arminianism, that is what Arminius (born as Jacob Harmenszoon around 1559; died 1609) believed, not what today's Arminian thinks it is all about. For example, along the classical lines of Arminianism are views that defend:

- total depravity,
- the sovereignty of God to control all things for the certain accomplishment of His will,
- God's perfect foreknowledge of, and the certainty of, all future events-including the free, moral choices of human beings, hence election is conditioned upon foreseen faith,
- the penal satisfaction view of the atonement,
- salvation by grace through faith and not by works, from beginning to end,
- and that apostasy cannot be remedied.

These were Arminius' views, not surprisingly, given that he was one of Beza's students, whose teaching rubbed off on Arminius somewhat. Thus in what passes for today's Arminianism, Arminius was not an even an Arminian. ;)

Unfortunately, most folks, especially vocal ones, are just following narratives they have run across on the internet, never having taken the time to actually read and study church history, the saints of yesteryear, or how matters of the faith were received by the church militant.

AMR
 

TulipBee

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Dr. Picirilli advocates classical Arminianism, that is what Arminius (born as Jacob Harmenszoon around 1559; died 1609) believed, not what today's Arminian thinks it is all about. For example, along the classical lines of Arminianism are views that defend:

- total depravity,
- the sovereignty of God to control all things for the certain accomplishment of His will,
- God's perfect foreknowledge of, and the certainty of, all future events-including the free, moral choices of human beings, hence election is conditioned upon foreseen faith,
- the penal satisfaction view of the atonement,
- salvation by grace through faith and not by works, from beginning to end,
- and that apostasy cannot be remedied.

These were Arminius' views, not surprisingly, given that he was one of Beza's students, whose teaching rubbed off on Arminius somewhat. Thus in what passes for today's Arminianism, Arminius was not an even an Arminian. ;)

Unfortunately, most folks, especially vocal ones, are just following narratives they have run across on the internet, never having taken the time to actually read and study church history, the saints of yesteryear, or how matters of the faith were received by the church militant.

AMR
I think some churches knows the truth Calvin teaches but try so hard to twist things just so they wouldn't the sound like him.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Statements of Faith A Good Thing

Statements of Faith A Good Thing

I think some churches knows the truth Calvin teaches but try so hard to twist things just so they wouldn't the sound like him.
Well, I am all for a church that lays out clearly what it believes. The old "we are a bible-believing church" is more sanctimony than information to anyone seeking to covenant with the church. For that matter, the "Just Me and My Bible" attitude has no warrant from Scripture. We interpret Scripture in community, a community of like-minded saints. Sola Scriptura is not soli scriptura, implying that we don't need any help to understand the Bible whatsoever. If that were true, then we couldn't even use a translation of the text, because that would be using someone else's help.

Such Just Me and My Bible folks misunderstand sola scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola scriptura it is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual.

When persons reject the confessional process, and pretend that they are being more "Scriptural" by not having a confession, they effectively make themselves something more than an interpreter of Scripture. They have gone beyond the right of private judgement and have claimed the authority of Scripture itself for their beliefs. Because they have set themselves up above that subordinate and mediate place which the Confession occupies, they assume a supreme and immediate relationship with Scripture which makes their teaching the voice of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Scripture testifies to the function of the ministry to teach the truth in a form of words which can be learned, taught to others, and entrusted to others to teach it (statements of faith, cofessions). 2 Timothy 1:13 states, "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 2:2 continues, "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

Finally, when individuals claim to be "Scriptural" in a sense which disallows the possibility of a confession subordinate to Scripture, they (1) deny to the church the authority to declare its mind as to what the Scriptures teach, and (2) take away from individuals the right to prove all things, to hold fast that which is good, and to abstain from all appearance of evil. So, by denying the proper function of Confessions to explicitly and subordinately interpret what Scripture teaches, the individual or the "church" sets their own implicit authority in a place of supremacy over others.

Churches and persons who cannot clearly articulate a statement of faith, are usually pregnant with all manner of unwritten dogma that must be discovered by much questioning or missteps. It is the latter that usually sends a prospective church member running, when they inadvertently trip over some unwritten rule of faith within that church.

Which is why a confessional church is often the wiser choice, one that points to one of the historic confessions as a marker of the boundaries of what that church believes. Nevertheless, there are churches that have comprehensive statements of faith, something all should have readily available.

It is impossible not to be confessional. Everyone is confessional, but whether it is written and whether it is biblical is another matter. And everyone is a theologian, even the people who say theology is bad. It is always better when we are clear on our theology, and for that nothing beats writing it down on paper. Writing does not guarantee infallibility, of course, but it does make it easier to determine whether the doctrine we're confessing aligns with Scripture.

The point of a confession of faith is not to put something above Scripture. The point of a confession is to ensure the public teaching of the church is as close to the teaching of Scripture as possible. When we do not write down our theology and confess it publicly as a church, it leads not to healthy freedom but to unhealthy restriction.

Confessions have historically been used in three ways. First, they have defined and defended doctrine and thereby protected the church from false teaching. Second, they have been used for catechesis: training and equipping believers with a well-rounded overview of Bible teaching on the main points of religion. Third, they have been used for doxology and worship. Many churches affirm the Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed in public worship. Though the main uses of a confession are the first and second, all three together show us how confessions are meant to be employed.

On the matter of what Calvin did or did not teach, folks need to be reminded that those commonly called Calvinists are not Calvin sycophants, but rather Scripture followers. That Calvin's views are found to be among the more accurate of Scripture is but the good providence of God. No church should need to appeal to Calvin in a statement of faith, for his views are more than adequately summarized in the historic confessions, including even the LBCF, despite its anti-paedo baptistic stance.

AMR
 
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freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Yours for the Choosing......

Yours for the Choosing......

When one backs his point with actual Bible quotes, God does the convincing, His way. If you love Jesus, let the Word sink in. It's the devil that goes silent and thats how you see it. You're on Lucifer's side till you're convinced of your sins.

Even the Arminian Dr Robert Picirilli got convicted of his errors like yours

16406735_10208628209209801_7887973446450949265_n.jpg

His 'opinion' is noted.

Of course all allowances, enabling and empowering is from 'God' the source of all energy, mind, matter, spirit, will. However, all covenants and genuine relationships are 'synergestic', being the willfull and AGREED upon union and inter-activity of 2 persons or parties in mutual association and co-operation. - to deny man's free agency in this relationship seems illogical/irrantional as to assume all is 'forced' by God, micro-managed or controlled by God. - a 'covenant' agreement cannot operate as such, unless each person/party is free to engage the covenant as free moral agents. And still God says,....if you accept YHWH as 'God',....I set before you blessings/curses, life or death....choose life that you may live. This 'God' encourages YOU to CHOOSE. - amazing eh?
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Image and likeness of God in man intact.......

Image and likeness of God in man intact.......


Don't forget man was originally created/made in God's OWN 'image' and 'likeness',....and in Judaism there is no 'fall' or 'original sin', except that man by his own free agency chose to make his own decisions and explorations of different possibilities of experience. Even now, we live each day, confronted with everyday choices of all kinds and varieties, which might represent choosing to eat from the tree of life or the tree of knowledge, and so we enjoy the fruits of our choices, and by universal law (karma) reap what we sow,....all actions are compensated since all acts have their consequences. Therefore, perhaps you might meditate upon the law of compensation ;)

Oh yes,...I think we covered that since 'God' is the source of all that exists, in actuality and potentiality,....of course,...all things in life are allowed or provided for by God (the entire spectrum of life and death-possibilities). No big revelation there, since nothing can exist apart from or outside of Deity.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Well, I am all for a church that lays out clearly what it believes. The old "we are a bible-believing church" is more sanctimony than information to anyone seeking to covenant with the church. For that matter, the "Just Me and My Bible" attitude has no warrant from Scripture. We interpret Scripture in community, a community of like-minded saints. Sola Scriptura is not soli scriptura, implying that we don't need any help to understand the Bible whatsoever. If that were true, then we couldn't even use a translation of the text, because that would be using someone else's help.

Such Just Me and My Bible folks misunderstand sola scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola scriptura it is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual.

When persons reject the confessional process, and pretend that they are being more "Scriptural" by not having a confession, they effectively make themselves something more than an interpreter of Scripture. They have gone beyond the right of private judgement and have claimed the authority of Scripture itself for their beliefs. Because they have set themselves up above that subordinate and mediate place which the Confession occupies, they assume a supreme and immediate relationship with Scripture which makes their teaching the voice of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Scripture testifies to the function of the ministry to teach the truth in a form of words which can be learned, taught to others, and entrusted to others to teach it (statements of faith, cofessions). 2 Timothy 1:13 states, "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 2:2 continues, "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

Finally, when individuals claim to be "Scriptural" in a sense which disallows the possibility of a confession subordinate to Scripture, they (1) deny to the church the authority to declare its mind as to what the Scriptures teach, and (2) take away from individuals the right to prove all things, to hold fast that which is good, and to abstain from all appearance of evil. So, by denying the proper function of Confessions to explicitly and subordinately interpret what Scripture teaches, the individual or the "church" sets their own implicit authority in a place of supremacy over others.

Churches and persons who cannot clearly articulate a statement of faith, are usually pregnant with all manner of unwritten dogma that must be discovered by much questioning or missteps. It is the latter that usually sends a prospective church member running, when they inadvertently trip over some unwritten rule of faith within that church.

Which is why a confessional church is often the wiser choice, one that points to one of the historic confessions as a marker of the boundaries of what that church believes. Nevertheless, there are churches that have comprehensive statements of faith, something all should have readily available.

It is impossible not to be confessional. Everyone is confessional, but whether it’s written and whether it’s biblical is another matter. And everyone is a theologian, even the people who say theology is bad. It’s always better when we’re clear on our theology, and for that nothing beats writing it down on paper. Writing does not guarantee infallibility, of course, but it does make it easier to determine whether the doctrine we’re confessing aligns with Scripture.

The point of a confession of faith isn’t to put something above Scripture. The point of a confession is to ensure the public teaching of the church is as close to the teaching of Scripture as possible. When we don’t write down our theology and confess it publicly as a church, it leads not to healthy freedom but to unhealthy restriction.

Confessions have historically been used in three ways. First, they’ve defined and defended doctrine and thereby protected the church from false teaching. Second, they’ve been used for catechesis: training and equipping believers with a well-rounded overview of Bible teaching on the main points of religion. Third, they’ve been used for doxology and worship. Many churches affirm the Apostles’ Creed or Nicene Creed in public worship. Though the main uses of a confession are the first and second, all three together show us how confessions are meant to be employed.

On the matter of what Calvin did or did not teach, folks need to be reminded that those commonly called Calvinists are not Calvin sycophants, but rather Scripture followers. That Calvin's views are found to be among the more accurate of Scripture is but the good providence of God. No church should need to appeal to Calvin in a statement of faith, for his views are more than adequately summarized in the historic confessions, including even the LBCF, despite its anti-paedo baptistic stance.

AMR
Could the confessions be included I worship songs?
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Don't forget man was originally created/made in God's OWN 'image' and 'likeness',....and in Judaism there is no 'fall' or 'original sin', except that man by his own free agency chose to make his own decisions and explorations of different possibilities of experience. Even now, we live each day, confronted with everyday choices of all kinds and varieties, which might represent choosing to eat from the tree of life or the tree of knowledge, and so we enjoy the fruits of our choices, and by universal law (karma) reap what we sow,....all actions are compensated since all acts have their consequences. Therefore, perhaps you might meditate upon the law of compensation ;)

Oh yes,...I think we covered that since 'God' is the source of all that exists, in actuality and potentiality,....of course,...all things in life are allowed or provided for by God (the entire spectrum of life and death-possibilities). No big revelation there, since nothing can exist apart from or outside of Deity.
Yeah yeah yeah, ain't we all vibrational. Some things may not make sense to the common man but why not take it literally anyway instead of saying some Bible stories are hogwash? God say things for a reason and you haven't found it yet.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Yeah yeah yeah, ain't we all vibrational. Some things may not make sense to the common man but why not take it literally anyway instead of saying some Bible stories are hogwash? God say things for a reason and you haven't found it yet.

All that God says and does is within the frame work of his holy, just, merciful and righteous nature. God cannot sin against himself nor can he sin against his created beings. This is why we can trust and believe in him. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about your Calvinist God.
 
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