Not only was I baptized with Christ, I was also crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20.
When Christ appears, I will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.
This is all probably meaningless to one that thinks that he has been predestinated to salvation.
John Calvin's Nazi God.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Not only was I baptized with Christ, I was also crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20.
When Christ appears, I will appear with him, Colossians 3:4.
This is all probably meaningless to one that thinks that he has been predestinated to salvation.
First and foremost... Happy Birthday to AMR.
Next... Lk. 9:58 and again Hebrews 13:13
Rm. 8:9 and 1 Jn. 2:27
Those were compliments to Robert Pate... and this is for you AMR...
A Link of Love
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Its a wonderful world............
Its a wonderful world............
Sure, there's a 'spiritual baptism' with-in Christ,...a co-participation in Christ that a believer takes part in,...but having a water baptism as a part of one's conversion experience is wonderful too, as an outward expression of faith.
If we hold to TULIP,....one's religious life may be somewhat indeterminable, except that one may suspect that his own 'free will' desires and efforts to love and follow God, are God-inspired,...but they may also be his own choosing too, as these often get confused. - in any case,...there is a 'co-operation' of wills...being 'married', but this is assumed to operate under different conditions per what school of thought you hold to (calvin, arminius, etc.). As all distinctions and duality fades into divine ground of non-duality (primordial oneness), of course...there is only the divine will triumphing, since it holds preeminence. In the divine marriage of soul and Spirit, there is only 'God' all radiant, in his omnipresence, in his totality...indivsible.
It must become disconcerting for a Calvinist who has back-slidden or fallen away from the faith, as he may suspect his initial 'drawing' was his own 'free will' and not God wooing him. Hmmmmm. But who know, what if a back-slider goes back and forth many times,...who knows who is at work,.....God or himself....OR maybe both?
As far as track-records of any Calvinist who did leave the faith, I dont know the %, but there a number of 'christians' who do leave for another religious path or more agnostic or atheistic view. Its pretty much a roll of the dice as far as calvinists go, unless they assume that by their own faithfulness, loving service to God, that He is continuing to inspire them, making them persevere...but I dont know what can be said for those who dissent from the faith,...again, it seems like a 'toss-up', because after all,...God will keep you in the faith to the end,.....OR you were never chosen to endure to the end to be saved, as God has already PASSED OVER you. For those 'passed over',...it doesnt really matter what they will or desire, since apparently they cannot undo the decree of God over them, and CHOOSE to REPENT, to return to God and be saved. The whole system is a travesty against man's freedom, while assuming 'God' has TOTAL CONTROL over sentient beings. - this is wonderful for the 'elect', but the 'unsaved' get a 'bum-wrap', and an eternal one at that. What goes on in the afterlife is also pretty speculative apart from some visionary imagery in a few passages of scripture, but for those interested there is much information on 'near death experiences', 'the afterlife' and spirit-communications...which gives us modern day current information of the after-life realms.
Its a wonderful world............
Sure, there's a 'spiritual baptism' with-in Christ,...a co-participation in Christ that a believer takes part in,...but having a water baptism as a part of one's conversion experience is wonderful too, as an outward expression of faith.
If we hold to TULIP,....one's religious life may be somewhat indeterminable, except that one may suspect that his own 'free will' desires and efforts to love and follow God, are God-inspired,...but they may also be his own choosing too, as these often get confused. - in any case,...there is a 'co-operation' of wills...being 'married', but this is assumed to operate under different conditions per what school of thought you hold to (calvin, arminius, etc.). As all distinctions and duality fades into divine ground of non-duality (primordial oneness), of course...there is only the divine will triumphing, since it holds preeminence. In the divine marriage of soul and Spirit, there is only 'God' all radiant, in his omnipresence, in his totality...indivsible.
It must become disconcerting for a Calvinist who has back-slidden or fallen away from the faith, as he may suspect his initial 'drawing' was his own 'free will' and not God wooing him. Hmmmmm. But who know, what if a back-slider goes back and forth many times,...who knows who is at work,.....God or himself....OR maybe both?
As far as track-records of any Calvinist who did leave the faith, I dont know the %, but there a number of 'christians' who do leave for another religious path or more agnostic or atheistic view. Its pretty much a roll of the dice as far as calvinists go, unless they assume that by their own faithfulness, loving service to God, that He is continuing to inspire them, making them persevere...but I dont know what can be said for those who dissent from the faith,...again, it seems like a 'toss-up', because after all,...God will keep you in the faith to the end,.....OR you were never chosen to endure to the end to be saved, as God has already PASSED OVER you. For those 'passed over',...it doesnt really matter what they will or desire, since apparently they cannot undo the decree of God over them, and CHOOSE to REPENT, to return to God and be saved. The whole system is a travesty against man's freedom, while assuming 'God' has TOTAL CONTROL over sentient beings. - this is wonderful for the 'elect', but the 'unsaved' get a 'bum-wrap', and an eternal one at that. What goes on in the afterlife is also pretty speculative apart from some visionary imagery in a few passages of scripture, but for those interested there is much information on 'near death experiences', 'the afterlife' and spirit-communications...which gives us modern day current information of the after-life realms.
I asked Robert about his baptism cause I find it so odd he tries unchurching others. How does one get baptized without a church? My guess he didn't need water at all.
I asked Robert about his baptism cause I find it so odd he tries unchurching others. How does one get baptized without a church? My guess he didn't need water at all.
I have been baptized twice, once when I was about 8 and again when I was 34.
This did nothing to save me. Baptism in the New Testament is proclamation of faith in Christ and his Gospel.
Going down into the water is a symbol of dying with Christ. Coming up out of the water is a symbol of being resurrected with Christ.
It adds NOTHING to your salvation and is nothing more than a public profession of faith in Christ.
Sure, there's a 'spiritual baptism' with-in Christ,...a co-participation in Christ that a believer takes part in,...but having a water baptism as a part of one's conversion experience is wonderful too, as an outward expression of faith.
If we hold to TULIP,....one's religious life may be somewhat indeterminable, except that one may suspect that his own 'free will' desires and efforts to love and follow God, are God-inspired,...but they may also be his own choosing too, as these often get confused. - in any case,...there is a 'co-operation' of wills...being 'married', but this is assumed to operate under different conditions per what school of thought you hold to (calvin, arminius, etc.). As all distinctions and duality fades into divine ground of non-duality (primordial oneness), of course...there is only the divine will triumphing, since it holds preeminence. In the divine marriage of soul and Spirit, there is only 'God' all radiant, in his omnipresence, in his totality...indivsible.
It must become disconcerting for a Calvinist who has back-slidden or fallen away from the faith, as he may suspect his initial 'drawing' was his own 'free will' and not God wooing him. Hmmmmm. But who know, what if a back-slider goes back and forth many times,...who knows who is at work,.....God or himself....OR maybe both?
As far as track-records of any Calvinist who did leave the faith, I dont know the %, but there a number of 'christians' who do leave for another religious path or more agnostic or atheistic view. Its pretty much a roll of the dice as far as calvinists go, unless they assume that by their own faithfulness, loving service to God, that He is continuing to inspire them, making them persevere...but I dont know what can be said for those who dissent from the faith,...again, it seems like a 'toss-up', because after all,...God will keep you in the faith to the end,.....OR you were never chosen to endure to the end to be saved, as God has already PASSED OVER you. For those 'passed over',...it doesnt really matter what they will or desire, since apparently they cannot undo the decree of God over them, and CHOOSE to REPENT, to return to God and be saved. The whole system is a travesty against man's freedom, while assuming 'God' has TOTAL CONTROL over sentient beings. - this is wonderful for the 'elect', but the 'unsaved' get a 'bum-wrap', and an eternal one at that. What goes on in the afterlife is also pretty speculative apart from some visionary imagery in a few passages of scripture, but for those interested there is much information on 'near death experiences', 'the afterlife' and spirit-communications...which gives us modern day current information of the after-life realms.
I have found that Calvinist do not have a salvation testimony. They cannot tell the hour or the day that they became Christians. It appears that they just decided to become a Calvinist. As for myself, I can remember the day and the hour that I became a Christian. It was very trumatic, because I was not expecting it.
beloved57
Well-known member
How are you a Christian when you reject the Gospel, and believe sinners Christ died for are lost ?
God's Truth
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That is exactly what you both do.
And you too
beloved57
Well-known member
You believe sinners Christ died for are lost also!
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Ask Mr. Religion
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Recalling One's Regenerative Event
Recalling One's Regenerative Event
Robert,
Is this some litmus test you are using? Where in Scripture do you find this being taught as a required marker of one's re-birth? Honestly, drawing upon your apparent omniscience, can you state that all non-Calvinists can recall the exact day and hour of their re-birth?
Your argument seems to be a very desperate tactic of the anti-Calvinist.
And, for the record, I do recall the event of my own regeneration quite clearly. That said, I would have to pinpoint the exact day using some calendar utility, but I have not forgotten the circumstances surrounding that singular event in my life.
I wonder if your mentor, Brinsmead, has an account of his own testimony? Which one does he claim? The SDA version or the generic Pateism version? :AMR:
AMR
Recalling One's Regenerative Event
Robert,
Is this some litmus test you are using? Where in Scripture do you find this being taught as a required marker of one's re-birth? Honestly, drawing upon your apparent omniscience, can you state that all non-Calvinists can recall the exact day and hour of their re-birth?
Your argument seems to be a very desperate tactic of the anti-Calvinist.
And, for the record, I do recall the event of my own regeneration quite clearly. That said, I would have to pinpoint the exact day using some calendar utility, but I have not forgotten the circumstances surrounding that singular event in my life.
I wonder if your mentor, Brinsmead, has an account of his own testimony? Which one does he claim? The SDA version or the generic Pateism version? :AMR:
AMR
No testimony, no salvation.
If you don't know when you became a Christian Chances are you are not one.
You apparently think that when you became a Calvinist that is when you became a Christian.
I became a Christian through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Can you say the same?
Ask Mr. Religion
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You are tilting at imaginary opponents, Robert. I have a testimony. I know when I was re-born. I have provided the details. I was regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit. I had no notions of Calvinism or any other doctrinal view when I was born anew as a fourteen year old boy. Nevertheless, as my walk of faith progressed I culd certainly map out what took place on that day and see its alignment to that which I hold dear.
I was baptized the fifth day of that revival meeting I attended (I assume you read my testimony). That was on May 14, 1967, a Sunday. Accordingly, I was born anew on Saturday, May 3.
To claim that if a person does not know the precise date that he or she was born again is a high likelihood that said person is not a Christian is arrogant, self-righteous folly, Robert. There is something seriously wrong with you if this is how you go about the business of the Lord.
AMR
Yea, I have heard all of that before, but there is something missing from your testimony.
You have not been born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
As a matter of fact you didn't even mention the Gospel.
You have no use for the Gospel because you think that you have been predestinated without the Gospel. What you had was a religious experience and not a salvation experience.
You still think that it is all about you and religion.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
I think for some people, they remember the particular day of their 'conversion' whereas with others of us,...perhaps its more of a progressive thing. AMR shares his testimony and the date, so that must count for something in his experience. - even though I've been critical of aspects of Calvinism, I respect 'personal religious experience' and wherever anyone is along the spiritual path. I always have, even if I'm vocal about particular beliefs, attitudes or concepts that I dont agree with. My own path is pretty progressive, ever evolving, as if that should surprise anyone
God's Truth
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No one is saved until after they believe and obey, and then they are given the Holy Spirit.
There is no scripture anywhere that says God gives the Holy Spirit to a person first.
That would be going against the scriptures.
As for you saying you knew nothing about Calvinism---what retreat where you at?!
God's Truth
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We have to obey to receive the Holy Spirit and be regenerated.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Monergism or Synergism?
Monergism or Synergism?
Its like the question, what came first....the egg or the chicken? :crackup: - both arise together in a sequential series.
All allowance, ability, capacity, opportunity is granted by 'God', so of course, its all GRACE (all 'God'),...but our part is in responding to that grace and inter-acting with it. The 'process' then is co-operational, synergistic. While protests for it all being 'monergistic' abide,....so be it ,...but one cannot deny that within divine providence there is a 'synergestic' dynamic happening within it all, where man has some measure of freedom and responsibility in his 'relating' to 'God'. Debate on both sides go on,.....with various proof-texts and doctrinal preferences positioned. But do know,....points of view are subject to change
Monergism or Synergism?
Its like the question, what came first....the egg or the chicken? :crackup: - both arise together in a sequential series.
All allowance, ability, capacity, opportunity is granted by 'God', so of course, its all GRACE (all 'God'),...but our part is in responding to that grace and inter-acting with it. The 'process' then is co-operational, synergistic. While protests for it all being 'monergistic' abide,....so be it ,...but one cannot deny that within divine providence there is a 'synergestic' dynamic happening within it all, where man has some measure of freedom and responsibility in his 'relating' to 'God'. Debate on both sides go on,.....with various proof-texts and doctrinal preferences positioned. But do know,....points of view are subject to change
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
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