Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[doloresistere]

In the natural, we don't want this at all. Those who question His revelation with rationalizations fail to understand His love, holiness, the nature of created man, justice, mercy, wrath, awefulness of sin, etc.

I personally would not want my loved ones suffering forever (don't think hell is a medieval torture chamber) nor would I have guessed God was triune, but we must put revelation about reason and sentimentality.

Gen. 18:25 In light of all the facts, the right thing is two destinies as Scripture reveals.

Using your logic, we should be upset that a child rapist/murderer gets justice instead of mercy?

As bad as a child rapist is, justice is not served by putting him through eternal conscious torture.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I Thess. 4; Jn. 14:1-2; I Cor. 15, etc.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus comes and stays.

He does not return to Heaven.

Jesus only speaks of His coming the one time.

The resurrection is a one time event when He appears--

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Later--

Christ and the saints come down from the clouds at Armageddon, not from the Heaven, and Christ and the saints had delivered Jerusalem from its sinners (Zech 12) and near enemies before He defends all Israel from the nations gathered for Armageddon. (Zech 14.) at the last vial.

Whereas Christ returns amost immediately before the first vial is poured out. 2 Thes.ch 1.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Why is it that so many christians want people to suffer eternal conscious torture for not accepting Christ? I don't believe God wants that for anyone.

I agree.

So does the Bible.

LA

 

[godrulz]

As bad as a child rapist is, justice is not served by putting him through eternal conscious torture.

You look from human vs divine perspective. You underestimate God's holiness and man's sinfulness. The cross shows the love of God and awfulness of sin. Your arguments are sentimental, not Scriptural. Scripture reveals everlasting separation from God or everlasting life with God.

One issue is that the spirit-soul created in the image of God lives on and on by God's design. He does not annihilate moral creation (animals and rocks do not have spirits). This necessitates two destinies.

There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. This is germane to the gospel and cultic theories that compromise this are simply not the biblical, historical, orthodox view.

You will have to take it up with Jesus. He did not teach your view.

 

[doloresistere]

You look from human vs divine perspective. You underestimate God's holiness and man's sinfulness. The cross shows the love of God and awfulness of sin. Your arguments are sentimental, not Scriptural. Scripture reveals everlasting separation from God or everlasting life with God.

One issue is that the spirit-soul created in the image of God lives on and on by God's design. He does not annihilate moral creation (animals and rocks do not have spirits). This necessitates two destinies.

There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. This is germane to the gospel and cultic theories that compromise this are simply not the biblical, historical, orthodox view.

You will have to take it up with Jesus. He did not teach your view.

It is the furtherest thing from holiness to demand that someone endure eternal conscious torment for a limited in scope crime. That is not my idea of who God is and I would never bow down to such a monster.

No. I'm not going to take it up with your demonic version of who Jesus really was. Keep that to yourself.

 

[godrulz]

Jesus is YHWH in the flesh. He has the honors, attributes, names, titles, deeds, position of God. God is triune, not solitary.

Who do you say He is? Mere creature?

Which leader, author, group do I have to connect with to be like you?

 

[doloresistere]

Jesus is YHWH in the flesh. He has the honors, attributes, names, titles, deeds, position of God. God is triune, not solitary.

Who do you say He is? Mere creature?

Which leader, author, group do I have to connect with to be like you?

If you are responding to me, I see no logical connection to anything I said.

 

[Doormat]

Using your logic, we should be upset that a child rapist/murderer gets justice instead of mercy?

Do you think the sins of a murderer are worse than your sins?

 

[godrulz]

If you are responding to me, I see no logical connection to anything I said.

I am wondering what your background is? Some Christians deny hell, but non-Christians also deny it.

Hell is secondary to your view on Christology.

If you said you were a Christadelphian, for e.g., I would understand your mindset.

You denigrated my view of Jesus, so what is yours?

What does your screen name mean?:deadhorse:

 

[godrulz]

Do you think the sins of a murderer are worse than your sins?

All sinners who do not become saints will go to hell. What is your point? Most sinners are not murderers. I was a condemned sinner despite not killing someone. All sinners are in the same boat, but stealing a candy is different than abortion in degree.

 

[doloresistere]

I am wondering what your background is? Some Christians deny hell, but non-Christians also deny it.

Hell is secondary to your view on Christology.

If you said you were a Christadelphian, for e.g., I would understand your mindset.

You denigrated my view of Jesus, so what is yours?

What does your screen name mean?:deadhorse:

What my background is only serves to muddy the issue. Why not address the points without reference to background? Otherwise, you just focus your attention on my background and the leave the original points in the dust. No thank you. Yes, I denigrated you view of Jesus. My view of Jesus is one of holiness and love. What you described your Jesus as is anything but that.

Oh and the by the way: I do believe in hell, just not your version of hell. My screen name means resister of evil in latin.

 

[StanJ53]

You only 'assume' to know all the arguments I have shared, but your ignorance shows otherwise. If you took the time to understand my counter-points, inquiries and considerations that show ECT to be 'problematic', there could be a dialogue. Until then, one cannot go on to intelligently discuss the subject. See previous commentaries.

The OP is about a Biblical doctrine and as such, the Bible is the arbitrator, NOT you or any other outside source.

The subject of ECT is debatable from within a 'biblical' format, and treating the subject upon its principle from a moral, philosophical, logical perspective, I treat it from both these views and more. If you're going to use only the bible, what is written and interpreted in that body of writing is still subject to sound principles, reason, logic, intelligent evaluation, thorough inspection. If it violates these precepts and one's moral conscience, it is unacceptable.

The OP is about whether ECT is Biblical or not. It is NOT open to outside interpretation, especially man-made philosophies. Your moral conscience is NOT the issue. Whether God's judgment IS ECT, is based on the truth gleaned from His own Word. There is NO other logic relevant or applicable.

You're ignorance, arrogant subtle presumptions...do not make my sharings 'obscure', but maybe only to yourself. I've amply shared my views with resources so readers can do even more research for themselves. And the questions challenging the 'assumption' of 'ECT' still stand.

That you presume to be the moral arbitrator on this thread is NOT acceptable as far as God and the Bible is concerned. That you believe you know better than those of us who have been lifelong followers of Christ, and KNOW God's Word, only serves to illustrate your own short comings. As far as I am concerned you have offered NOTHING that convinces me otherwise, and unless you can supply a Biblical reference to counter ECT, it remains the truth of scripture, regardless of your opining.

More assumptions and pontificating. Deal with my propositions, inquiries and considerations, if you have the courage and honesty to do so. If not interested and content with your present beliefs on the subject, we agree cordially to disengage.

Plain Biblical fact. I have dealt with your assertions...they are wrong based on what the Bible tells us. As you engaged me then please feel free to disengage. I for one will always respond to fallacious assertions NOT supported in God's Word.

You're a newbie here, I'm a veteran of over 10 years with a steady pedigree behind me (see profile, bio, blogs, signature links, thead/post archives, etc.) and ever progressing forward as one the forum's eclectic contributors....for starters. Second,....while TOL is on the whole, a Christian-based discussion board, this particular section is the 'Religion' section, so its open to posters and subjects of all religious traditions, cultures and denominations, or even those who are anti-religionists or atheists....and so on. We do have an 'Exclusively Christian Theology' section...catering more to 'christian theology', or biblically-centered discussions if you'd feel more comfortable posting there, if so oriented.

Yes I am new on this forum board, but have been a born again Christian for over 42 years and I can assure you I know God's Word. That is ALL that is required to comment on this and any other Biblical issue. As the OP was about a Biblical concept, it is the Bible that determines what is correct or not. Outside sources and opinions are NOT germane to the OP. This is something you should know after 10 years of being here.
Feel free to respond to other OPs that don't require the Bible as their arbitrator.

Beyond the specific options of 'soul-death', 'ECT' or 'universalism' I've shared a more liberal selection of spirit-messages which abhor the teaching of ECT, from the perspective of Spiritism. Therefore debate of ECT extends from other levels of logic, besides just a potpourri of scriptural proof-texts which apparently are leading debaters nowhere, since each hold onto his own 'interpretation' no matter what, being close-minded to consider anything else. Spiritism teaches the eternal progression of all souls, the principle of reincarnaton (plurality of existences), and the eventual advancement and perfection of souls towards union with the Creator. This school does not obviously accept that 'soul-death' is possible, so 'annihilation' is not one of its explanations against ECT,...it rejects such on the basis of the soul's more or less eternal nature, and the principles of justice, mercy, fairness, love and wisdom...which governs the progress of all souls towards realizing union with God, harmony with his laws and true happiness.

None of which is germane to the OP.

If you do KNOW the Bible then you should note that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the light, NO man comes to the Father except through me."

 

[StanJ53]

Why is it that so many christians want people to suffer eternal conscious torture for not accepting Christ? I don't believe God wants that for anyone.

I don't want this and neither does God. Torment and torture are NOT the same thing. If you oppose something you should make sure you know what exactly you are opposing before you try to identify it.

God does NOT need any approval to excercise His will.

 

[Princely]

Wrong thread

 

[IMJerusha]

Do I need to justify using logic to reason with another Christian? The scriptures state there is a broad way that many enter and narrow way that few find. If an appeal to believe being a logical fallacy doesn't bother you, consider Matthew 7:13.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Consider also, the broad way leads to "destruction," not eternal conscious torment. One must throw out logic and ignore numerous scriptures to discern "destruction" means eternal conscious torment.

This is odd. Are you, by any chance, trying to imply that because I believe in eternal conscious torment that it will lead to destruction?
There is Scripture to support ECT, so isn't your interpretation of Scripture also an appeal to believe? Not only are you appealing to believe in something other than ECT, you're appealing to a specific translation of Scripture. My translation of Matthew 7:13 from the Koine texts doesn't even have the word destruction. Yeshua stated in Matthew 25:46 that punishment will be eternal. There's nothing illogical, considering the transfiguration, about assuming that people receiving that punishment will be conscious. Why?...because Moses and Elijah, being long dead and in heaven, were conscious and talking out of their mouths during the transfiguration.

 

[steko]

Annihilation is not punishment, for if there is no conscious existence or memory, it is the same as never existing.

 

[godrulz]

What my background is only serves to muddy the issue. Why not address the points without reference to background? Otherwise, you just focus your attention on my background and the leave the original points in the dust. No thank you. Yes, I denigrated you view of Jesus. My view of Jesus is one of holiness and love. What you described your Jesus as is anything but that.

Oh and the by the way: I do believe in hell, just not your version of hell. My screen name means resister of evil in latin.

Do you deny or affirm the Deity of Christ/trinity? If you reject this, your view of hell is irrelevant.

 

[godrulz]

I don't want this and neither does God. Torment and torture are NOT the same thing. If you oppose something you should make sure you know what exactly you are opposing before you try to identify it.

God does NOT need any approval to excercise His will.

Good point. God is just, not a cruel sadist. Torment happens even today among those who are far from God. This does not mean they are being tortured by an entity. However, the Bible does use the word torment, so we should not apologize (but should understand what it is/is not).

 

[doloresistere]

Jesus is God in the flesh. Does that answer your question? I do not believe in the form of the trinity that is expressed by most on here though. For instance, I do not believe that Jesus had a nature that desired to sin like man does.

 

[godrulz]

Jesus is God in the flesh. Does that answer your question? I do not believe in the form of the trinity that is expressed by most on here though. For instance, I do not believe that Jesus had a nature that desired to sin like man does.

Thx, sister in Christ. So you believe Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one God (but 3 personal distinctions, not modes/offices).

I am one of the few that is not traditional on the impeccability of Christ. Most say Jesus could not sin. I say He was human, had a will, was tempted, but did not sin (both views affirm His absolute sinlessness). Being human is not why we sin. The original sin tradition is another can of worms. So, I would suggest man does not have the Augustinian sinful nature, yet all men are sinners by choice (sin is volitional, not a substance).

It sounds like you would agree with most if you are trinitarian, including myself.