Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?
 

Timotheos

New member
Thanks Tomlapalm,

You say many verses in the bible support ECT, will you post a few of them?
Also, I'm not sure that I agree that Spiritual death is torment. Can you tell me more about this? How can someone who is dead, be in torment at all?
 

Krsto

Well-known member
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.
 

tomlapalm

New member
Thanks Tomlapalm,

You say many verses in the bible support ECT, will you post a few of them?
Also, I'm not sure that I agree that Spiritual death is torment. Can you tell me more about this? How can someone who is dead, be in torment at all?

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Physical death is not spiritual death. Spiritual death is separation from God the give and sustainer of life.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Physical death is not spiritual death. Spiritual death is separation from God the give and sustainer of life.

We have today the Olympic Torch which is known as an "eternal flame." We call it that because the flame just keeps burning and burning. If you were to throw a wad of paper into the flame would the paper keep on burning and burning or would it burn up in a few seconds? Yet the flame is still called an eternal fire.

Think about it.
 

Krsto

Well-known member
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).

If I judge you as guilty and sentence you to death and that death is never revoked you will be sent away into everlasting punishment. It's a punishment with an everlasting effect, that's why it's called everlasting punishment.

You people just can't fathom how God in his love, mercy, and judgement will end a person's existence unless he receives by faith the gift of God through Jesus Christ which is eternal life.
 

Ezekel

New member
Revelations 14:9-11

From this verse it is clear, at least to my mind, that hell is eternal torment, with no rest.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
If I judge you as guilty and sentence you to death and that death is never revoked you will be sent away into everlasting punishment. It's a punishment with an everlasting effect, that's why it's called everlasting punishment.

You people just can't fathom how God in his love, mercy, and judgement will end a person's existence unless he receives by faith the gift of God through Jesus Christ which is eternal life.

You exalt God's love above His holiness/justice/wrath.

Not all sinners repent and receive His free gift.

Your interpretation of everlasting punishment is a rationalization not demanded by the text.

ECT is the biblical, historical, orthodox view. Tim should be able to google endless biblical support for it or read any number of books.

The popular annihilation or post-mortem conversion or inclusivism or universalistic views are false teachings usually found in the kingdom of the cults.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is a doctrine of demons, in my opinion.

The wicked will perish.

Neg rep for calling scripture a doctrine of demons. Repent you demon possessed perverted of the truth.
 

godrulz

New member
Hall of Fame
Neg rep for calling scripture a doctrine of demons. Repent you demon possessed perverted of the truth.

He was wrong to make a stupid statement, but that does not prove he is a godless unbeliever.

The Deity of Christ is an acid test, not the state of the dead.

John Stott had a traditional view on this subject (correct) and later changed his view. He remained a lover of God, godly man, disciple of Jesus Christ despite being wrong on an important, peripheral matter.

We would have to probe doormat's other beliefs to see if he is in the faith or not (believers do not agree on every peripheral doctrinal issue).
 

Timotheos

New member
If punishment is not everlasting, then grammatically, neither is life.

Don't you think that never ever having life again would be an everlasting punishment? Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say that one group goes to eternal life? And the other group? Do they also go to eternal life being tormented in Hell? No they go to eternal punishment, not eternal torment. The punishment is that they perish, they go to their second death, which is eternal.
 

Timotheos

New member
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.

Thanks for quoting the Bible in support of your position, I see that not everyone does this. That's Romans 6:23 right? So are you saying that Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Whosover believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?
 

Timotheos

New member
What do Habakkuk 2:11; Matthew 3:8-9, and Luke 19:39-40 mean to you?

Habakkuk 2:11 is not saying anything about eternal torment. Does it say something different to you?
"The stones of the wall will cry out,
and the beams of the woodwork will echo it."

Matthew 3:8-9 says And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Do you think that says that there is eternal torment in hell?

Luke 19:39-40 says:
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

Is this the verse you meant to post? It doesn't really say "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead.

What does John 3:16 say to you?
 

Timotheos

New member
You exalt God's love above His holiness/justice/wrath.

Not all sinners repent and receive His free gift.

Your interpretation of everlasting punishment is a rationalization not demanded by the text.

ECT is the biblical, historical, orthodox view. Tim should be able to google endless biblical support for it or read any number of books.

The popular annihilation or post-mortem conversion or inclusivism or universalistic views are false teachings usually found in the kingdom of the cults.

ECT is taught in more cults than Annihilationism. Are you really sure you want to go in that direction? I am asking what does the Bible teach, I am not asking what do the cults teach. Mormons and Muslims teach ECT. Does that make ECT wrong or right?
 

Timotheos

New member
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Nice verses, brother!
Isn't there any verse that actually says that the wicked will live forever in torment in hell? Because I don't see that in any of these verses. Do you know what happens to a toad that is thrown into a lake of fire? The same thing that happens to everything else, it is burned up. Some of the verses you posted even come straight out and say "The lake of fire is the second death". That's what I believe the lake of fire is, death. The second death. The lake of fire is definitely not eternal life swimming in fire.
 
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