Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Doormat]

However, God's Word does say that the wicked will perish and will be no more.

Excuse me Steve, but who's quote is this?

Timotheos, post # 845.

His statement is supported by numerous scriptures. Here are two examples:

Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

 

[IMJerusha]

It should have:
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·

"Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate to hell is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it." -- GNT

From Bible Gateway: The Good News Translation, formerly called the Good News Bible or Today’s English Version, was first published as a full Bible in 1976 by the American Bible Society as a “common language” Bible. It is a clear and simple modern translation that is faithful to the original Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic texts. The GNT is a highly trusted version.

Just making my point that you are putting forth appeal to believe based on your translation. Not all translations are the same.

Additionally, according to Witness Lee and others, the word "destruction" (apwleian) does not refer to the perishing of the person himself, but to the destruction of a person's deeds and work as referenced in 1 Corinthians 3:15, so there are two trains of thought regarding this. You are, again, putting forth your appeal to believe.

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions. I will ask this of you again: do you believe that ECT is a doctrine of salvific importance?

 

[Timotheos]

What part of Paul will be destroyed in this fire in Romans seven? the innerman (new man) doesn't always reflect its will over the (oldman) the flesh, the struggle against it is part of the path, everyone will have this experience because its part of the journey to the more excellent way where the Spirit overcomes the flesh with the flaming sword of Love which lets you pass through and partake of the tree of life within..

If we judge our self righteous while condemning others we are still falling short of true rest and peace within, Cains ego still guides the ship, which is religion, and their doctrines and books throw you, the newman, in the fire along with the oldman but doesn't allow you to get out once your in, the Spirit (Able) does, and shows you the path that can overcome that ego through many fires and resurrections if needed until that fear, hate, arrogance, elitistism, dogmas, etc..... no longer holds your mind in bondage to them.

Its all ancient science dealing with the human brain, the holy of holies, in a temple made without hands the kingdom of God the human body.

First, no part of Paul will be destroyed in Gehenna. Paul is a Christian.
Second, I don't judge myself righteous, I trust in Christ's righteousness, and his righteousness is given to me in exchange for my sin, which is nailed to the cross with Him.
Third, I don't know what you are talking about since I am a a Bible student and not well versed in the kind of Philosophy you are talking about.

 

[Timotheos]

Quote:
However, God's Word does say that the wicked will perish and will be no more.

Excuse me Steve, but who's quote is this?

That's my quote, direct from the Bible. See Psalm 37:10 and 20, please, and thank you!

 

[Aimiel]

Sorry pal, but I do not "resist scripture". I believe scripture. I don't believe the unscriptural things people are saying about the lost living forever being tormented in hell while they are dead.

You don't believe Scripture, then. I don't believe that being constantly tormented by flames for ever and ever is any kind of life. It is constant destruction.

 

[IMJerusha]

That's my quote, direct from the Bible. See Psalm 37:10 and 20, please, and thank you!

You're welcome. I have a problem with incorrectly or failing to identify quotes. I don't like or appreciate confusion.

 

[Doormat]

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat

My translation of Matthew 7:13 from the Koine texts doesn't even have the word destruction.

It should have:
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης ὅτι πλατεῖα καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι’ αὐτῆς·

"Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate to hell is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it." -- GNT

From Bible Gateway: The Good News Translation, formerly called the Good News Bible or Today’s English Version, was first published as a full Bible in 1976 by the American Bible Society as a “common language” Bible. It is a clear and simple modern translation that is faithful to the original Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic texts. The GNT is a highly trusted version.

Is the word ἀπώλειαν in the Greek text? Yes or no.

Just making my point that you are putting forth appeal to believe based on your translation. Not all translations are the same.

You are mistaken. He has shown you that the the word destruction is in the Greek text, not made an appeal to belief argument.

Appeal to Belief is a fallacy that has this general pattern:

1. Most people believe that a claim, X, is true.
2. Therefore X is true.​

Additionally, according to Witness Lee, the word "destruction" does not refer to the perishing of the person himself, but to the destruction of a person's deeds and work and he refers to 1 Corinthians 3:15.

Witness Lee is mistaken. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is not speaking about "deeds and works" in an intangible or material sense, but about the results of building others up on Christ and the consequence of not. What is burned up or not is a person, not an intangible "deed" or "work" or a material object, and that should be obvious because of how Paul defined what is being built (1Co 3:9).

1 Corinthians 3:9-19 For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

It's obvious in that context that 1 Corinthians 3:15 is the loss of a person to annihilation, which is the destruction by fire that 2 Peter 3:7-12 is describing.

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.

What questions didn't he answer?

Exactly! What is punishment if we are not conscious to feel it?

You wouldn't consider lethal injection to be a punishment?

Where is your answer to his question?

 

[Timotheos]

"Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate to hell is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it." -- GNT

From Bible Gateway: The Good News Translation, formerly called the Good News Bible or Today’s English Version, was first published as a full Bible in 1976 by the American Bible Society as a “common language” Bible. It is a clear and simple modern translation that is faithful to the original Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic texts. The GNT is a highly trusted version.

Just making my point that you are putting forth appeal to believe based on your translation. Not all translations are the same.

I don't see any word in the greek of Matthew 7:13 that could possibly be translated "hell".

Additionally, according to Witness Lee and others, the word "destruction" (apwleian) does not refer to the perishing of the person himself, but to the destruction of a person's deeds and work as referenced in 1 Corinthians 3:15, so there are two trains of thought regarding this. You are, again, putting forth your appeal to believe.

So according to you and "Witness Lee", this so called "destruction" is really nothing to worry about? Well isn't that "good news" to the atheists?
I'm sorry, but ἀπώλειαν really does mean destruction.
Dr. Weymouth said, "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy,' or 'destruction,' are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this."

I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.

I noticed that your questions were directed toward Mr. Doormat, so I didn't answer them. I don't always answer questions, nor am I required to. It doesn't mean that you are right. You would still have to provide proof of your position.

 

[Timotheos]

I will ask this of you again: do you believe that ECT is a doctrine of salvific importance?

This is the first time I've seen this question from you. I noticed that you editted your response to add the question in. That's okay, I go back and edit my posts all the time. But that's why I didn't see THIS question. The other questions weren't directed toward me, and had to do with Mr. Doormat's reasons for saying certain things, so they weren't questions that I could possibly have answered.

But I will answer this one. No, I don't believe you need to believe in ECT or believe that ECT is false in order to be saved. You can only receive eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by believing that the wages of sin is ECT or by believing that the wages of sin is death. However, since the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, it would be prudent to believe that instead of the religious falsehood of ECT.

 

[Angel4Truth]

If you had the choice to either be blotted out of existence or to spend eternity in prison, which would you choose? Explain your choice.

If its when on earth in a living flesh body, alive on earth, because then there is a chance to get out.

If its for eternity based on Gods laws and having desired eternal separation and eternal punishment, then i would rather be blotted out, since there is no parole in the lake of fire.

Being blotted out and ceasing to exist when one already thinks thats what happens as an atheist and that life already ends upon physical death, where would be any punishment in that? They have already decided to take their chances and live life as their own God. Blotting them out means they have nothing to be punished for, since they already think this life is it and the one the matters.

 

[Timotheos]

If its when on earth in a living flesh body, alive on earth, because then there is a chance to get out.

If its for eternity based on Gods laws and having desired eternal separation and eternal punishment, then i would rather be blotted out, since there is no parole in the lake of fire.

Being blotted out and ceasing to exist when one already thinks thats what happens as an atheist and that life already ends upon physical death, where would be any punishment in that? They have already decided to take their chances and live life as their own God. Blotting them out means they have nothing to be punished for, since they already think this life is it and the one the matters.

Being "blotted out" or as the Bible puts it "perishing" would still be a punishment, because the alternative to being "blotted out" is eternal life. I understand that you would rather be blotted out. I would take the eternity in prison, rather than the blotting. I'm a natural optimist, and would bide my time waiting for eventual justice. Eternity is a long time and anything can happen. I can dig a long tunnel if I have an eternity to do it.

 

[IMJerusha]

Is the word ἀπώλειαν in the Greek text? Yes or no.

That wasn't my point, Doormat.

You are mistaken. He has shown you that the the word destruction is in the Greek text, not made an appeal to belief argument.

Appeal to Belief is a fallacy that has this general pattern:

1. Most people believe that a claim, X, is true.
2. Therefore X is true.​

Why am I mistaken, because I don't believe exactly as you? Tim makes an appeal to believe based upon his belief. Is it the same as some others? No. Obviously, some believe as he and you do and some don't.

Witness Lee is mistaken. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is not speaking about "deeds and works" in an intangible or material sense, but about the results of building others up on Christ and the consequence of not. What is burned up or not is a person, not an intangible "deed" or "work" or a material object, and that should be obvious because of how Paul defined what is being built (1Co 3:9).

1 Corinthians 3:9-19 For we are God's fellow-workers: ye are God's husbandry, God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

It's obvious in that context that 1 Corinthians 3:15 is the loss of a person to annihilation, which is the destruction by fire that 2 Peter 3:7-12 is describing.

That is what he and you and others believe but clearly, not all believe this.

What questions didn't he answer?

I wasn't aware, Doormat, that Tim was a child and couldn't speak for himself. He seems to have been doing a pretty good job up until now. Go back and read my post.

Where is your answer to his question?

If Tim wishes to hold my feet to his fire, I'm sure he will.

 

[freelight]

Availing Love......

Availing Love......

What part of Paul will be destroyed in this fire in Romans seven? the innerman (new man) doesn't always reflect its will over the (oldman) the flesh, the struggle against it is part of the path, everyone will have this experience because its part of the journey to the more excellent way where the Spirit overcomes the flesh with the flaming sword of Love which lets you pass through and partake of the tree of life within..

If we judge our self righteous while condemning others we are still falling short of true rest and peace within, Cains ego still guides the ship, which is religion, and their doctrines and books throw you, the newman, in the fire along with the oldman but doesn't allow you to get out once your in, the Spirit (Able) does, and shows you the path that can overcome that ego through many fires and resurrections if needed until that fear, hate, arrogance, elitistism, dogmas, etc..... no longer holds your mind in bondage to them.

Its all ancient science dealing with the human brain, the holy of holies, in a temple made without hands the kingdom of God the human body.

'Fire' can refer to actual physical fire or be a 'figurative' term, 'symbolic' referring to passion, heat, 'burning', 'purifying', etc. The fire of the Holy Spirit is a purifying fire indeed, leaving behind only those elements that are pure. The Lord Jesus immerses us in fire and the Spirit, so that both work to effect a 'spiritual purification'. The fire and the Spirit are one.

Death of the false-self or 'ego', affects the rising of the true 'Self' which is created in God's image and likeness, and in some schools is the divine nature itself, free of egoity. Hence, the old must die, for the new to be. All souls surrendering to 'God' receive the provision of 'God.

Infinite LOVE by its very nature preserves, purifies, encourages, inspires, doing all in its power to save and empower its beloved! Such is love's nature. If Love is eternal, and souls are inherently more or less eternal....as long as they are 'conscious' and 'able' to exercise their freedom of choice and respond to 'God',....salvation, healing and progress is available to them, by Love's eternal provision.

This point of view however seems to escape many here who choose to pontificate over passage-interpretations which are further loaded with so many other pre-figurations of theology as to muddy the waters of confusion. The clarity of reason, spiritual intelligence and intellectual honesty (which can admit it doesnt know, or is only speculating) is refreshing, to even step back and let go of one's beliefs or 'interpretations' and look from the place of Love and Wisdom, consdering the principles of divine justice and mercy which govern all 'things' and 'beings' eternally.

Justice is always ministered in fairness, tempered and moderated by mercy, ever by the constitution of love and wisdom. Every soul is judged, assisted and empowered by such in the divine plan and will.



pj

 

[Angel4Truth]

Being "blotted out" or as the Bible puts it "perishing" would still be a punishment, because the alternative to being "blotted out" is eternal life. I understand that you would rather be blotted out. I would take the eternity in prison, rather than the blotting. I'm a natural optimist, and would bide my time waiting for eventual justice. Eternity is a long time and anything can happen. I can dig a long tunnel if I have an eternity to do it.

Since you do not really believe God means what He says, i suppose you would take that way out and think you get another chance after death.

I wonder how many peoples blood you will have on your hands by not telling them the truth.

 

[Timotheos]

If Tim wishes to hold my feet to his fire, I'm sure he will.

I don't want to hold your feet to the fire, that seems like a cruel and unjust thing to do, even if it isn't for an eternity. :chuckle:

 

[IMJerusha]

I don't want to hold your feet to the fire, that seems like a cruel and unjust thing to do, even if it isn't for an eternity. :chuckle:

I gave you my oath, Brother. I would, however, appreciate an answer to my question. Do you believe that the doctrine of ECT is a salvific issue?

 

[Timotheos]

Since you do not really believe God means what He says, i suppose you would take that way out and think you get another chance after death.

I wonder how many peoples blood you will have on your hands by not telling them the truth.

What do you mean I really don't believe God means what He says? I certainly do believe God means what He says.

In the question, nobody said I was dead. I even picked the choice "not dead, not blotted out." If I were dead, then I might pick a different answer. But that's not much of a choice, is it? Would you rather be dead or would you rather be blotted out?

Since you don't really believe God means what He says, (His Word says that the wages of sin is death) I wonder how many people's deaths you will have on your hands by not telling them the truth. See? I can ask you the same question you asked me. Of course, you haven't been able to show me one word from God that I don't believe.

 

[Angel4Truth]

What do you mean I really don't believe God means what He says? I certainly do believe God means what He says.

In the question, nobody said I was dead. I even picked the choice "not dead, not blotted out." If I were dead, then I might pick a different answer. But that's not much of a choice, is it? Would you rather be dead or would you rather be blotted out?

Since you don't really believe God means what He says, (His Word says that the wages of sin is death) I wonder how many people's deaths you will have on your hands by not telling them the truth. See? I can ask you the same question you asked me. Of course, you haven't been able to show me one word from God that I don't believe.

Show me where God says we get another chance for salvation after we die.

 

[Timotheos]

I gave you my oath, Brother.

What?

I would, however, appreciate an answer to my question. Do you believe that the doctrine of ECT is a salvific issue?

I already answered this.

But I will answer this one. No, I don't believe you need to believe in ECT or believe that ECT is false in order to be saved. You can only receive eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by believing that the wages of sin is ECT or by believing that the wages of sin is death. However, since the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, it would be prudent to believe that instead of the religious falsehood of ECT.

 

[Timotheos]

Show me where God says we get another chance for salvation after we die.

Sure, no problem, as SOON AS YOU SHOW ME WHERE I EVER SAID THAT WE GET ANOTHER CHANCE FOR SALVATION AFTER WE DIE!!!!!!