Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[StanJ53]

Okay, Go ahead and believe whatever makes you happy. Jesus didn't SAY "I'm talking about the metaphysical realm."

You (or somebody) asked me "Why didn't Jesus say 'destruction' or 'death' if that's what he meant. I showed you that he did. But go ahead and believe the lost are tortured forever if that's what makes you happy.

I didn't say he did so stop equivocating. You showed me words OUT of context and their proper meaning. I don'[t need your permission to believe what God's word clearly demonstrates.

 

[Timotheos]

I didn't say he did so stop equivocating. You showed me words OUT of context and their proper meaning. I don'[t need your permission to believe what God's word clearly demonstrates.

And I don'y need yours. I'm not equivocating. I didn't take anything out of context, but because it isn't what you want to believe, you don't.

I'm done wasting my time with you.

 

[godrulz]

NOT what the Bible says in Rev 1:7... ALL will SEE Him.

There is ONLY one judgment seat and that happens AFTER the 1000 year reign of Jesus and after the war with Gog and Magog. Rev 20:7-10

Rev. 1:7 refers to His visible Second Coming after the Trib before the Mill. It is not in a context of the GWT at the end of the Mill. It refers to the inhabitants of the earth, not millions of dead people from ages past. Context is key and a chronology is not found in one verse.

Are you post-mill second coming?

 

[godrulz]

And you are assuming one definition of destruction/death that doesn't even mean destruction or death.

You are making the mistake that Mormons and Muslims make. Haven't I told you a dozen times that I'm not a JW, and it is offensive to keep comparing me to them?

I know you are not a JW, but you use their same refuted arguments. Again, you are JW-like in your thinking on this one issue, but non-JW-like on other things that matter far more (Deity of Christ).

If I argued for the pre-existence of souls, I would not have a problem if you said I argue like Origen and Mormons (as long as you did not say I am a Mormon or that all my views are Mormon). I deny this error, BTW.

 

[chrysostom]

I know you are not a JW, but you use their same refuted arguments. Again, you are JW-like in your thinking on this one issue, but non-JW-like on other things that matter far more (Deity of Christ).

someone else having a similar belief is not an argument for or against it
so
why do you keep presenting it as if it were?

 

[godrulz]

someone else having a similar belief is not an argument for or against it
so
why do you keep presenting it as if it were?

The argument is flawed, not the guilt by association (you are correct).

 

[IMJerusha]

If the story is literal, he had a tongue, a nervous system, wanted literal water to cool him, and was being tormented by literal flames. If the story is not literal, it is a parable.

By "literal" you mean, if it really happened. The transfiguration was real. Elijah and Moses had tongues with which to speak to Yeshua.

It is a logical fallacy.

A logical fallacy as by man's logic. Since when do the things of God have anything to do with man's logic?

I believe God is real because He has revealed Himself to me through Christ, and what He revealed explains my experience.

Ah, but that's a logical fallacy. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

The scriptures answered all my questions, and even without them ...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And yet, you understand things one way while I understand them another. Perhaps that is as Scripture states, "No eye has seen , no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him." So, in terms of eternal conscious torment, we have yet to know the details of how God has planned things.

Why would that matter? A parable can contain proper names. Numbers 23:7 contains five proper names.

Numbers 23:7 is prophecy, not parable.

"... a certain rich man ..." See also Luke 12:16 and Luke 16:1.

Exactly! No names.

And where were those covetous Pharisees that Jesus was addressing by telling them the story? Dead in their sins. It fits the parable that Jesus was telling them.

The real life situation Yeshua described would also have addressed the Pharisees.

In context, Jesus was telling the story to the covetous Pharisees, and Jesus only spoke to them in parables according to scripture.

Matthew 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

And, in context, not one of those parables contained anything unrealistic/outside of the natural. The sower sowed seed, not birds, the mustard seed was still planted, not swallowed and it still grew into a tree, not a dinosaur. What Yeshua described about Lazarus and the rich man could very well have been real and was not out of context or God's ability.

 

[IMJerusha]

A dog is a nephesh.

A plant is not.

LA

If I may question your use of the word "nephesh". I would think it more proper to say that a dog is possessed of nephesh. Although the term "nephesh" means soul or life, it is expressly identified as that which God breathes into us. In Latin, the word for nephesh (soul) is "anima" which is from the Greek "animos", meaning air or breath.

Just, um, a commentary.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If I may question your use of the word "nephesh". I would think it more proper to say that a dog is possessed of nephesh. Although the term "nephesh" means soul or life, it is expressly identified as that which God breathes into us. In Latin, the word for nephesh (soul) is "anima" which is from the Greek "animos", meaning air or breath.

Just, um, a commentary.

Well so is man.

LA

 

[IMJerusha]

How is sleeping then being completely obliterated punishment? Again the atheist believes this life is it, is standing before God for a few being judged then being destroyed again (dying again) a punishment? What would be the point?

Tell me how those who are asleep and then destroyed completely are able to cry and wail in suffering, rage, anger, worry despair?

Exactly! What is punishment if we are not conscious to feel it?

 

[IMJerusha]

Well so is man.LA

This is true, because God breathes life into us just as he did Adam.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

And you are assuming one definition of destruction/death that doesn't even mean destruction or death.

You are making the mistake that Mormons and Muslims make. Haven't I told you a dozen times that I'm not a JW, and it is offensive to keep comparing me to them?

He never cares that it might offend.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The rapture is the invisible return of Christ for the Church. The Bema Seat/Judgment Seat of Christ happens in heaven during the 7 year Tribulation on earth. Our sins were judged at the cross, so it is a judgment of works relating to rewards/loss rewards/stewardship. Christ then visibly comes at the end of the Trib with the Church. The Great White Throne judgment (not the Bema Seat of Cor.) is primarily the unregenerate lost (and some millennial saints) at the end of the 1000 years. It is mostly a judgment of sins (and works) leading to the lake of fire for most.

There is no invisible coming of Christ described in the entire Bible.

There is no rapture before a supposed 7 years of tribulation.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

LA

 

[godrulz]

I Thess. 4; Jn. 14:1-2; I Cor. 15, etc.

 

[Timotheos]

Exactly! What is punishment if we are not conscious to feel it?

So...


You wouldn't consider lethal injection to be a punishment?

 

[freelight]

Principles that govern soul-progress.......

Principles that govern soul-progress.......

Hi PJ,

Like I said, I know all these arguments. I don't need to read them. I need to know where you are coming from.

You only 'assume' to know all the arguments I have shared, but your ignorance shows otherwise. If you took the time to understand my counter-points, inquiries and considerations that show ECT to be 'problematic', there could be a dialogue. Until then, one cannot go on to intelligently discuss the subject. See previous commentaries.

Blog-post portal:

ECT

However you did make a statement that gives me a good idea so I don't believe we have much to discuss as we do NOT have any common ground. I believe in the inerrant word of God, and you don't. I am a Christian and apparently you are not.

The subject of ECT is debatable from within a 'biblical' format, and treating the subject upon its principle from a moral, philosophical, logical perspective, I treat it from both these views and more. If you're going to use only the bible, what is written and interpreted in that body of writing is still subject to sound principles, reason, logic, intelligent evaluation, thorough inspection. If it violates these precepts and one's moral conscience, it is unacceptable.

That you need to obscure where you are philosophically coming from, makes it impossible to have an open and honest discussion.

You're ignorance, arrogant subtle presumptions...do not make my sharings 'obscure', but maybe only to yourself. I've amply shared my views with resources so readers can do even more research for themselves. And the questions challenging the 'assumption' of 'ECT' still stand.

You cannot possibly KNOW what God thinks or what His intentions are if you don't have the Holy Spirit residing in you, and you don't if you don't believe that His Holy Scriptures are the ONLY arbitrator we have to guide us.

More assumptions and pontificating. Deal with my propositions, inquiries and considerations, if you have the courage and honesty to do so. If not interested and content with your present beliefs on the subject, we agree cordially to disengage.

Not sure what you expect from a CHRISTIAN forum, but there it is.

You're a newbie here, I'm a veteran of over 10 years with a steady pedigree behind me (see profile, bio, blogs, signature links, thead/post archives, etc.) and ever progressing forward as one the forum's eclectic contributors....for starters. Second,....while TOL is on the whole, a Christian-based discussion board, this particular section is the 'Religion' section, so its open to posters and subjects of all religious traditions, cultures and denominations, or even those who are anti-religionists or atheists....and so on. We do have an 'Exclusively Christian Theology' section...catering more to 'christian theology', or biblically-centered discussions if you'd feel more comfortable posting there, if so oriented.

I'm stepping back some from this thread as I have other studies and projects in the making. My debates on this subject are exhaustive, any can access former treatments of such as provided. Any are also free to PM, email or chat with me via Yahoo Messenger

Beyond the specific options of 'soul-death', 'ECT' or 'universalism' I've shared a more liberal selection of spirit-messages which abhor the teaching of ECT, from the perspective of Spiritism. Therefore debate of ECT extends from other levels of logic, besides just a potpourri of scriptural proof-texts which apparently are leading debaters nowhere, since each hold onto his own 'interpretation' no matter what, being close-minded to consider anything else. Spiritism teaches the eternal progression of all souls, the principle of reincarnaton (plurality of existences), and the eventual advancement and perfection of souls towards union with the Creator. This school does not obviously accept that 'soul-death' is possible, so 'annihilation' is not one of its explanations against ECT,...it rejects such on the basis of the soul's more or less eternal nature, and the principles of justice, mercy, fairness, love and wisdom...which governs the progress of all souls towards realizing union with God, harmony with his laws and true happiness.

Another message from the otherside to consider:

"Union with the Divine Being is the aim of human existence. To the attainment of this aim three things are necessary--knowledge, love justice: three things are contrary to this aim--ignorance, hatred, injustice. You are false to these fundamental principles when you falsify the idea of God by exaggerating His severity; thus suggesting to the mind of the creature that there is in it more clemency, long-suffering, love, and true justice, than you attribute to the Creator. You destroy the very idea of retribution by rendering it as inadmissible, by your minds, as is, by your hearts, the policy of the Middle Ages, with its hideous array of torturers, executioners, and the stake. When the principle of indiscriminating retaliation has been banished forever from human legislation, can you hope to make men believe that principle to be the rule of the Divine Government? Believe me, brothers in God and in Jesus Christ, you must either resign yourselves to let all your dogmas perish in your hands rather than modify them, or you must revivify them by opening them to the beneficent action that good spirits are now bringing to bear on them. The idea of a hell full of glowing furnaces and boiling cauldrons might be credible in an age of iron; in the nineteenth century it can be nothing more than an empty phantom, capable, at the utmost, of frightening little children, and by which the children themselves will no longer be frightened when they are a little bigger. By your persistence in upholding mythic terrors, you engender incredulity, source of every sort of social disorganization; and I tremble at beholding the very foundations of social order shaken, and crumbling into dust, for want of an authoritative code of penality. Let all those who are animated by a living and ardent faith, heralds of the coming day, unite their efforts, not to keep up antiquated fables now fallen into disrepute, but to resuscitate and revivify the true idea of penality, under forms in harmony with the usages, sentiments, and enlightenment of your epoch.

"What, in fact, is 'a sinner'? One who, by a deviation from the right road, by a false movement of the soul, has swerved from the true aim of his creation, which consists in the harmonious worship of the Beautiful, the Good, as embodied in the archetype of humanity, the Divine Exemplar, Jesus Christ.

"What is 'chastisement'? The natural, derivative consequence of that false movement; the amount of pain necessary to disgust the sinner with his departure from rectitude, by his experience of the suffering caused by that departure. Chastisement is the goad which, by the smarting it occasions, decides the soul to cut short its wanderings, and to return into the right road. The sole aim of chastisement is rehabilitation; and therefore, to assume the eternity of chastisement is to deprive it of all reason for existing.

"Cease, I beseech you, the attempt to establish a parallelism of duration between good, essence of the Creator, and evil, essence of the creature; for, in so doing, you establish a standard of penality that is utterly without justification. Affirm, on the contrary, the gradual diminution of imperfections and of chastisements through successive existences, and you consecrate the doctrine of the union of the creature with the Creator by the reconciliation of justice with mercy."

- APOSTLE PAUL

- From the Spirit's Book ( a collection of spirit-messages compiled by Alan Kardec, forming the basis of Spiritism)

Principles of justice and mercy, mediated by wisdom and love ever prevail as long as the 'God' of these virtues lives, and the relationship that 'God' has with souls uphold these precepts in the mediation of recociliation, healing, reparation and eternal progress.



pj

 

[Doormat]

The HoH makes no sense to you but it apparently makes plenty of sense to a lot of Christians.

That may be, but an appeal to belief is not convincing to me.

Why isn't an appeal to belief convincing to you?

It is a logical fallacy.

A logical fallacy as by man's logic. Since when do the things of God have anything to do with man's logic?

Do I need to justify using logic to reason with another Christian? The scriptures state there is a broad way that many enter and narrow way that few find. If an appeal to believe being a logical fallacy doesn't bother you, consider Matthew 7:13.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Consider also, the broad way leads to "destruction," not eternal conscious torment. One must throw out logic and ignore numerous scriptures to discern "destruction" means eternal conscious torment.

 

[godrulz]

Destruction can mean either. Lethal injection is punishment, but so is rotting in a jail cell.

The arguments go in circles and can be used either way. The bottom line is the cumulative evidence of word studies, context, all relevant verses.

 

[doloresistere]

Why is it that so many christians want people to suffer eternal conscious torture for not accepting Christ? I don't believe God wants that for anyone.

 

[godrulz]

Why is it that so many christians want people to suffer eternal conscious torture for not accepting Christ? I don't believe God wants that for anyone.

In the natural, we don't want this at all. Those who question His revelation with rationalizations fail to understand His love, holiness, the nature of created man, justice, mercy, wrath, awefulness of sin, etc.

I personally would not want my loved ones suffering forever (don't think hell is a medieval torture chamber) nor would I have guessed God was triune, but we must put revelation about reason and sentimentality.

Gen. 18:25 In light of all the facts, the right thing is two destinies as Scripture reveals.

Using your logic, we should be upset that a child rapist/murderer gets justice instead of mercy?