Is believing/faith a work ?

Hoping

Well-known member
BINGO!!!! The scripture must be rightly divided as Paul says.
Salvation of your soul will never include your actions. It is based on the actions of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We'll continue to disagree on that.
If I had not heard, believed, repented of sin, and gotten water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, I never would be counted as a convert.
Or received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Or been entered into the book of life.
Or been reborn of God's seed.
Or stopped committing sin.
BINGO!!! That what Paul says.
Indeed, works for salvation are OUT today in this dispensation of God's grace.
Amen.
Just the thought of refusing bacon, or Denver omelets, makes me rejoice in the Lord's sacrifice on my behalf.
 

JudgeRightly

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Salvation of your soul will never include your actions. It is based on the actions of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We'll continue to disagree on that.

Let's say you offered to build someone a house, completely for free, and to their exact specifications. You bought and resourced the materials yourself, all the wood, nails, cabling, piping, furniture, appliances, everything. You spent hours laying the foundation, pouring the concrete, setting up the frame of the house, laying all the ducting, pipework, conduit, and electrical lines, put in all the outlets, put the insulation into the walls, put the drywall on all the interiors, laid all the brickwork and stonework on the exterior, and placed all the roof tiling. You built a really nice house, one any home builder would be proud of. On one of the days you were working, the man you were building the house for, a local pastor, offers to take you out for a meal at McDonald's. You accept, your work done for the day that day.

Later, after the house is finished, the pastor praises your handiwork. He then says, "And all it cost me was a meal from McDonald's!"

What a horrible thing to say. It was said in jest, but it's still extremely rude. You weren't doing it for any sort of reward, you were doing it because you wanted to, because someone was in need, and you had the skills and expertise needed to be able to fulfill that need. And then the person you did all of that for belittles your work by joking that he paid for all your hard work with a cheap meal.

-=-=-=-=-

So here's the question, Hoping.

Why do you belittle Christ's work on the cross by offering up your actions as payment for what Christ has done for you?

Is Christ's work not enough? Is it lacking?

Are your efforts somehow going to make up for that lack?

How arrogant are you, for assuming that your works can pay ANY amount of the debt you have incurrred from your sins, when Christ has already paid your ransom!

If I had not heard, believed, repented of sin, and gotten water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, I never would be counted as a convert.
Or received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Or been entered into the book of life.
Or been reborn of God's seed.

You couldn't have done ANY of those things without God first coming to die on the cross for your sins. Your actions are a RESPONSE to His doing so, not a requirement for Him to do so.

You can boast all you want in your own actions, but your actions came AFTER He provided, and His provision did not require your actions.

Why do you keep trying to steal His credit?

Or stopped committing sin.

Liar.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Let's say you offered to build someone a house, completely for free, and to their exact specifications. You bought and resourced the materials yourself, all the wood, nails, cabling, piping, furniture, appliances, everything. You spent hours laying the foundation, pouring the concrete, setting up the frame of the house, laying all the ducting, pipework, conduit, and electrical lines, put in all the outlets, put the insulation into the walls, put the drywall on all the interiors, laid all the brickwork and stonework on the exterior, and placed all the roof tiling. You built a really nice house, one any home builder would be proud of. On one of the days you were working, the man you were building the house for, a local pastor, offers to take you out for a meal at McDonald's. You accept, your work done for the day that day.

Later, after the house is finished, the pastor praises your handiwork. He then says, "And all it cost me was a meal from McDonald's!"

What a horrible thing to say. It was said in jest, but it's still extremely rude. You weren't doing it for any sort of reward, you were doing it because you wanted to, because someone was in need, and you had the skills and expertise needed to be able to fulfill that need. And then the person you did all of that for belittles your work by joking that he paid for all your hard work with a cheap meal.
-=-=-=-=-

So here's the question, Hoping.
Why do you belittle Christ's work on the cross by offering up your actions as payment for what Christ has done for you?
Is Christ's work not enough? Is it lacking?
Are your efforts somehow going to make up for that lack?
How arrogant are you, for assuming that your works can pay ANY amount of the debt you have incurrred from your sins, when Christ has already paid your ransom!
There's the "rub".
I am not trying to repay Christ's redeeming work on my/our behalf.
I am being obedient to Him and His apostles.
Without that obedience, I will be considered as dead as the worst murderer on the last day.
You couldn't have done ANY of those things without God first coming to die on the cross for your sins. Your actions are a RESPONSE to His doing so, not a requirement for Him to do so.
You are correct.
But His having done them, don't you think we should avail ourselves of the tools He has given us?
You can boast all you want in your own actions, but your actions came AFTER He provided, and His provision did not require your actions.
You are correct again.
My actions are in response to His gracious love.
Without those actions, I can't show Him, or my neighbor, how much I love Him in return.
Why do you keep trying to steal His credit?
Stealing His credit?
That cannot ever happen.
I give Him all the credit for opening the door...that I had to walk through.
Is "walking through the door" stealing His credit too?
Is not walking through he door in any way complimentary to Him?
Is continuing in sin in any way a credit to Him?
Is walking around with all my past sins still on me a credit to Him?

You have received a great gift.
Instead of just standing around after thanking somebody for it, open it.
 

marke

Well-known member
So you believe James but not Paul?

Rom 4:1-8 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (4:6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (4:7) [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (4:8) Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
I believe the words of the Bible are inspired by God, not men.
 

Right Divider

Body part
We'll continue to disagree on that.
If I had not heard, believed, repented of sin, and gotten water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, I never would be counted as a convert.
Or received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Or been entered into the book of life.
Or been reborn of God's seed.
Or stopped committing sin.

Amen.
Just the thought of refusing bacon, or Denver omelets, makes me rejoice in the Lord's sacrifice on my behalf.
You are thoroughly confused and impossible to have an intelligent conversation with. Back to my ignore list for you.

P.S. I really do hope that you do get saved by grace through faith someday.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

See strongs # 2041:


  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

    The mind is :

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

    Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

    So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

    Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

    But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.


This has to be the weakest argument you've ever proposed (and you definitely have proposed some weak ones before).
 

Hoping

Well-known member
You are thoroughly confused and impossible to have an intelligent conversation with. Back to my ignore list for you.
I might be able to make my questions easier.
P.S. I really do hope that you do get saved by grace through faith someday
Already happened, thanks to the grace and mercy of God....if you mean "converted" when you write "saved".
I will say "I am saved" AFTER the day of judgement.
 

JudgeRightly

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There's the "rub".
I am not trying to repay Christ's redeeming work on my/our behalf.

I literally quoted you saying otherwise, disagreeing with the concept of "saved by Christ's work alone."

Here it is again, in case you've forgotten:

Salvation of your soul will never include your actions. It is based on the actions of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We'll continue to disagree on that.

Which makes you a liar.

We are saved through Christ alone, through faith alone, no works, and not even "saved to do good works." The works a Christian does after he is saved have no bearing on his salvation.

I am being obedient to Him and His apostles.

Your obedience is as filthy rags, compared to Christ's obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

Your obedience amounts to absolutely nothing. Stop trying to be obedient, because you cannot, and let Christ be the one to live through you.

Without that obedience, I will be considered as dead as the worst murderer on the last day.

See, this part right here.

Your obedience will not save you.

It's Christ's obedience that saves. Put your faith in Him, rather than in your obedience.

You are correct.
But His having done them, don't you think we should avail ourselves of the tools He has given us?

What tools? There's nothing for us to do, because HE did all the work.

All we have to do is have faith.

You are correct again.
My actions are in response to His gracious love.

You seem to be missing the point.

Without those actions, I can't show Him, or my neighbor, how much I love Him in return.

Irrelevant.

Stealing His credit?
That cannot ever happen.

Because you're perfect?

Liar.

I give Him all the credit for opening the door...that I had to walk through.
Is "walking through the door" stealing His credit too?

We're not talking about walking through the door. We're talking about what you, Hoping, are doing after.

Is not walking through he door in any way complimentary to Him?

Walking through the door is not obedience, aka works. It's faith.

Is continuing in sin in any way a credit to Him?

Irrelevant.

Is walking around with all my past sins still on me a credit to Him?

If you still have your past sins on your account, then you're not saved, and you need to put your faith in Him.

No, this is not talking about not sinning after one is saved.

You have received a great gift.

You haven't received it yet.

Instead of just standing around after thanking somebody for it, open it.

Irrelevant.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
I literally quoted you saying otherwise, disagreeing with the concept of "saved by Christ's work alone."
As that is not in the bible, I completely dismiss such an errant notion of men.
In fact, there are several other things that are written of in the bible that "save us".
Among them, faith, grace, the word, and water baptism.
Here it is again, in case you've forgotten:
Thanks.
We are saved through Christ alone, through faith alone, no works, and not even "saved to do good works." The works a Christian does after he is saved have no bearing on his salvation.
As salvation won't be assured until the day of judgement, it is superfluous to pre-suppose the "race" is already over.
In fact, the notion is a gateway to sin.
If men think they are already guaranteed heaven, why resist every-any temptation?
Your obedience is as filthy rags, compared to Christ's obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
You use a saying of Isaiah, (Isa 64:6), who was describing the rebellious Israelites.
Nobody trying to please God with the Mosaic Law could actually keep the Law.
Things have changed with the advent of a new covenant.
Thank God !!!
Paul wrote..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22), pointing out that we can be righteous now...if you have the faith of Christ and believe
Your obedience amounts to absolutely nothing. Stop trying to be obedient,
What is the source of your exhortation?
because you cannot, and let Christ be the one to live through you.
What is the source of your admonition?
See, this part right here.
Your obedience will not save you.
The disobedient won't be saved.
It's Christ's obedience that saves. Put your faith in Him, rather than in your obedience.
And the result of doing that is being able to be obedient !!!
What tools? There's nothing for us to do, because HE did all the work.
All we have to do is have faith.
Faith is one of the tools, besides grace, and prayer, and study, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and a true permanent repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
As you said "we have to have faith", it should seem obvious to you that the "Christ alone" doctrine has been twisted by the unclean to promote sin in the believers.
Christ did indeed do all that was presaged concerning Himself, but the rest is in our hands.
We are the ones on Paul's "race".
So, RACE !
You seem to be missing the point.
What is your point?
Irrelevant.
Only to some.
Because you're perfect? Liar.
You better make up your mind on Whose side you represent.
We're not talking about walking through the door. We're talking about what you, Hoping, are doing after.
Yes, we are.
You say we need do nothing to be saved, then say, we must have faith.
But then prescribe a faith that is ineffectual.
Walking through the door is not obedience, aka works. It's faith.
Great.
You have at least figured out that having faith, and everything associated with faith, is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Walking through the door is the result of faith in what is on the other side.
It is the answer to hope and sorrow for past sins.
It is a quest for a better life.
Irrelevant.
Only to some.
If you still have your past sins on your account, then you're not saved, and you need to put your faith in Him.
Correct, in Him and in the water baptism He commanded in His name for the remission of those past sins. (Matt 28:19)
No, this is not talking about not sinning after one is saved.
What is the "this" you refer to?
You haven't received it yet.
I have received the gifts God has granted men in order to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.
Thanks be to God, in the name of Jesus Christ !!!
Irrelevant.
To some, parables are still hidden.
 

Bright Raven

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As that is not in the bible, I completely dismiss such an errant notion of men.
In fact, there are several other things that are written of in the bible that "save us".
Among them, faith, grace, the word, and water baptism.

Thanks.

As salvation won't be assured until the day of judgement, it is superfluous to pre-suppose the "race" is already over.
In fact, the notion is a gateway to sin.
If men think they are already guaranteed heaven, why resist every-any temptation?

You use a saying of Isaiah, (Isa 64:6), who was describing the rebellious Israelites.
Nobody trying to please God with the Mosaic Law could actually keep the Law.
Things have changed with the advent of a new covenant.
Thank God !!!
Paul wrote..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22), pointing out that we can be righteous now...if you have the faith of Christ and believe

What is the source of your exhortation?

What is the source of your admonition?

The disobedient won't be saved.

And the result of doing that is being able to be obedient !!!

Faith is one of the tools, besides grace, and prayer, and study, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and a true permanent repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
As you said "we have to have faith", it should seem obvious to you that the "Christ alone" doctrine has been twisted by the unclean to promote sin in the believers.
Christ did indeed do all that was presaged concerning Himself, but the rest is in our hands.
We are the ones on Paul's "race".
So, RACE !

What is your point?

Only to some.

You better make up your mind on Whose side you represent.

Yes, we are.
You say we need do nothing to be saved, then say, we must have faith.
But then prescribe a faith that is ineffectual.

Great.
You have at least figured out that having faith, and everything associated with faith, is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Walking through the door is the result of faith in what is on the other side.
It is the answer to hope and sorrow for past sins.
It is a quest for a better life.

Only to some.

Correct, in Him and in the water baptism He commanded in His name for the remission of those past sins. (Matt 28:19)

What is the "this" you refer to?

I have received the gifts God has granted men in order to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.
Thanks be to God, in the name of Jesus Christ !!!

To some, parables are still hidden.
Water Baptism does not save!
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
You are welcome. I know my mind is just about made up and there is little possibility I will benefit myself or others by debate on some subjects.
I haven't put you on ignore Marke so you must be doing something right.
 

JudgeRightly

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As that is not in the bible, I completely dismiss such an errant notion of men.

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-8&version=NKJV

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

"To him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."

This is what I was talking about earlier in post #602. Your efforts to try to add to what Christ has done only counts as debt that must be compensated.

In fact, there are several other things that are written of in the bible that "save us".
Among them, faith, grace, the word, and water baptism.

Faith, the word, nor water baptism will save you.

Again:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

NOTHING you do will save you.

Faith is not meritorious.

As salvation won't be assured until the day of judgement, it is superfluous to pre-suppose the "race" is already over.

The "race" has nothing to do with how one is saved. The "race" comes AFTER one is saved.

Paul tells Christians:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His gracewhich He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:3-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:3-14&version=NKJV

This is how Christians KNOW that we are saved, not awaiting salvation.

Judgement Day is not for believers, but for unbelievers. Our judgement is at a different seat, one where we will be rewarded for the things we do as believers. THIS is the prize we strive for in the race, not because we are trying to earn salvation, or because we must do good works to maintain our salvation, or because we somehow contribute to our salvation in any way, but because the goal is to love God.

In fact, the notion is a gateway to sin.

No, it's not.

If men think they are already guaranteed heaven, why resist every-any temptation?

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.For he who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:1-14&version=NKJV

You use a saying of Isaiah, (Isa 64:6), who was describing the rebellious Israelites.

Yes, the verse is specifically referring to Israel. However, I'm using it in a much broader sense, applying it to all of humanity, because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

That includes you.

Nobody trying to please God with the Mosaic Law could actually keep the Law.

Trying to please God by following ANY law will not work. That includes any made up laws you have come up with to try to make yourself feel good, Hoping, including within your own theology.

Things have changed with the advent of a new covenant.

The New Covenant is specifically for Israel, not the Body of Christ, which is a new creature.

Paul wrote..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" (Rom 3:21-22), pointing out that we can be righteous now...if you have the faith of Christ and believe

Paul wasn't talking about the New Covenant.

He was talking about being in Christ through one's faith, as He stated in Ephesians 2:8-9.

What is the source of your exhortation?
What is the source of your admonition?

The Bible.

The disobedient won't be saved.

Neither will you, who has not yet put his faith in Christ, who gave Himself for you, but who instead thinks that his obedience will somehow earn him a spot in heaven.

And the result of doing that is being able to be obedient !!!

Learn to walk before you try to run, Hoping.

Put your faith in Christ. Only then will you be able to walk in the Spirit.

Faith is one of the tools, besides grace, and prayer, and study, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and a true permanent repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Wrong. Supra.

As you said "we have to have faith",

So put your faith in Christ. That's the only way you will be saved.

it should seem obvious to you that the "Christ alone" doctrine has been twisted by the unclean

Peter:
Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. - Acts 10:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts10:28&version=NKJV

to promote sin in the believers.

Supra.

Christ did indeed do all that was presaged concerning Himself, but the rest is in our hands.

There is no "the rest."

Christ did it all. All we can do is put our trust in Him.

We are the ones on Paul's "race".
So, RACE!

You aren't. You haven't even gotten to the starting line yet.

What is your point?

Try reading what I said again.

You better make up your mind on Whose side you represent.

Quit lying, sinner.

You say we need do nothing to be saved,

Correct.

then say, we must have faith.

Because faith is not a work.

Allow me to use an analogy.

You're on an infinitely long rope, and at one end is Heaven. You are trying to climb that rope to heaven, but you will never make it there, because it is infinitely long.

Christ has already climbed the rope, and tells you He can carry you there, all you have to do is let go.

Faith is letting go of the rope.

Continuing to climb the rope is any work, keeping any law, etc.

Letting go of the rope is not the same as continuing to climb the rope.

You, Hoping, are still trying to climb the rope.

But then prescribe a faith that is ineffectual.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Faith is simply a response to what Christ has done. It has no merit in and of itself. It doesn't do anything.

You have at least figured out that having faith, and everything associated with faith, is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.

Paul wrote against working, period, because working, doing good works, is the equivalent of trying to keep a law.

Walking through the door is the result of faith in what is on the other side.

No. Faith is, itself, walking through the door that Christ opened, that you could not.

It is the answer to hope and sorrow for past sins.
It is a quest for a better life.

False.


Yes.

and in the water baptism He commanded in His name for the remission of those past sins. (Matt 28:19)

No. Those who are in Christ (and you're not, Hoping), then you have ALREADY been baptised with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism isn't needed for Christians, because it is purely symbolic of something else, and only has meaning in the context of Israel and her covenant relationship with God.

What is the "this" you refer to?

What I had just said.

I have received the gifts God has granted men in order to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.

Gifts? What gifts?

The only gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Christians' names are written in the book the moment they put their faith in Christ.

Thanks be to God, in the name of Jesus Christ !!!

Yes, yes, your attempts to pass off your arrogance as good deeds and praise for God is astounding.

To some, parables are still hidden.

Parables are for those who refuse to understand, to hide information.

Paul's gospel is explicitly clear.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Hoping

Well-known member
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-8&version=NKJV
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV
"To him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."
This is what I was talking about earlier in post #602. Your efforts to try to add to what Christ has done only counts as debt that must be compensated.
I am adding nothing to Christ.
He commanded baptism and repentance.
He commanded obedience to God.
He commanded us to love God with all of our heart, strength, and might; and our neighbor as ourself.
I won't accept a doctrine that repudiates Christ's commands.
Faith, the word, nor water baptism will save you.
Again:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV
NOTHING you do will save you.
You are trying to warm your hands with a glove with only one finger.
The "race" has nothing to do with how one is saved. The "race" comes AFTER one is saved.
I don't know if I am glad you have no fear of what God is going to do to the disobedient on the day of judgement, or fearful for you
That is when the race is over.
Paul tells Christians:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His gracewhich He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:3-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:3-14&version=NKJV
This is how Christians KNOW that we are saved, not awaiting salvation.
Your interpretation runs counter to what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 4:17 that judgement will begin with the church of God.
A day of judgement is coming, but you don't think you will be judged.
I find that a mistake.
Judgement Day is not for believers, but for unbelievers. Our judgement is at a different seat, one where we will be rewarded for the things we do as believers. THIS is the prize we strive for in the race, not because we are trying to earn salvation, or because we must do good works to maintain our salvation, or because we somehow contribute to our salvation in any way, but because the goal is to love God.
Peter proves your doctrine in error. (1 Peter 4:17)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.For he who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. - Romans 6:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:1-14&version=NKJV
Amen !
I love God's words concerning the death of the old me and the raising up of the new me with Christ at my water baptism.
Yes, the verse is specifically referring to Israel. However, I'm using it in a much broader sense, applying it to all of humanity, because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
That includes you.
I was one of the worst sinners, until I turned from sin.
Thanks be to God for giving the gift of repentance from sin to the Gentiles.
Trying to please God by following ANY law will not work. That includes any made up laws you have come up with to try to make yourself feel good, Hoping, including within your own theology.
It works after a real turn from sin and reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost.
God is pleased with obedience, and proves it with the gift of the Holy Ghost...Thanks be to God.
The New Covenant is specifically for Israel, not the Body of Christ, which is a new creature.
You don't know what you are missing.
The new creature is everyone who killed the old man at their "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial.
I am a new creature.
Paul wasn't talking about the New Covenant.
He was talking about being in Christ through one's faith, as He stated in Ephesians 2:8-9.
That IS the new covenant.
The Bible.
So the bible is telling me to stop being obedient to God?
Wow.
What a horrible interpretation of God's will and hope.
Neither will you, who has not yet put his faith in Christ, who gave Himself for you, but who instead thinks that his obedience will somehow earn him a spot in heaven.
I put my faith in Christ when I turned from sin, repented of sin, and got baptized in His name for the remission of my past sins.
He rewarded me with the gift of the Holy Ghost so I could continue on with a good conscience towards Him.
Learn to walk before you try to run, Hoping.
The disobedient can't even walk.
Put your faith in Christ. Only then will you be able to walk in the Spirit.
Already did, many years ago...thanks be to God for allowing me to hear, and believe the message !
So put your faith in Christ. That's the only way you will be saved.
Amen, the first step to perfect harmony with God on earth.
Peter:
Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. - Acts 10:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts10:28&version=NKJV
Supra.
There is no "the rest."
Christ did it all. All we can do is put our trust in Him.
You aren't. You haven't even gotten to the starting line yet.
Try reading what I said again.
Quit lying, sinner.
Correct.
Because faith is not a work.
Allow me to use an analogy.
You're on an infinitely long rope, and at one end is Heaven. You are trying to climb that rope to heaven, but you will never make it there, because it is infinitely long.
Christ has already climbed the rope, and tells you He can carry you there, all you have to do is let go.
Faith is letting go of the rope.
Continuing to climb the rope is any work, keeping any law, etc.
Letting go of the rope is not the same as continuing to climb the rope.
You, Hoping, are still trying to climb the rope.
The "rope" is not endless.
It starts at wanting to please God and ends on the day of judgement.
In between are countless tests from God to determine one's resolve.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Faith is simply a response to what Christ has done. It has no merit in and of itself. It doesn't do anything.
Is that faith the one you have been mentioning for the entire post?
But it doesn't do anything?
Yikes !
Paul wrote against working, period, because working, doing good works, is the equivalent of trying to keep a law.
Sorry you have misinterpreted it.
Paul wrote against adhering to the Mosaic Law's works, for salvation.
Specifically, circumcision and dietary rules.
No. Faith is, itself, walking through the door that Christ opened, that you could not.
Is that the faith you said "does nothing" ?
The faith of the believer does plenty, including believing the One who opened the door.
False.
Yes.
No. Those who are in Christ (and you're not, Hoping), then you have ALREADY been baptised with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism isn't needed for Christians, because it is purely symbolic of something else, and only has meaning in the context of Israel and her covenant relationship with God.
What I had just said.
Gifts? What gifts?
The only gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Christians' names are written in the book the moment they put their faith in Christ.
Yes, yes, your attempts to pass off your arrogance as good deeds and praise for God is astounding.
Parables are for those who refuse to understand, to hide information.
Paul's gospel is explicitly clear.
Your attempts to dash my faith are futile.
I know that pleasing God is exactly what God wants and has equipt us to accomplish.
A god that won't, is not a real God.
 
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