Is believing/faith a work ?

beloved57

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It is sure a good thing then that Paul made it clear with six different verses that the works he wrote against were the works of the Law.
Rom 9:32..."Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law..."
Gal 2:16..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Also, Gal 3:2, 5, and 10.
Your false doctrine is paralyzing.

I'll also point out that Paul added "...even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ" in Gal 2:16.
Believed so that we might be justified.
An action we must do for a certain result.
Your false doctrine is a lie.
Paul made it clear by the Greek word God inspired him to use! Works are any actions, activities done by us!
 

Hoping

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Paul made it clear by the Greek word God inspired him to use! Works are any actions, activities done by us!
It is quite silly to think we can lose our salvation because we refuse to tell lies or kill people for the fun of it.
Paul was talking about the "works" of circumcision, primarily, and to a lesser extent dietary rules, when he wrote against works.
Your false doctrine deprives men of repenting from sin and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin.
Not to mention enduring faithfully till the end...for the promised salvation.
Here is one of the "works" related writings of Paul from Col 2..."Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?"
So, how will "turning from" sin, or "getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission past sins" cause one to "perish"?
Your doctrine is clearly of the devil.
 

7djengo7

Well-known member
believing is a work we do!

Do you believe? If you do, and you call your believing a "work," could you please tell us to what end you are performing this "work" of yours? What do you say you are achieving by this "work" of yours? Or, do you want to tell us, instead, that your "work" of believing is just pointless?
 

beloved57

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Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise.
 

JudgeRightly

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Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

BOTH situations are false doctrine.

Faith is the result of Christ's gospel of grace. Some people have faith and believe after hearing it, others do not.

Salvation, on the other hand, is wholly of God.

Salvation, not faith, is God's work.

Faith, not salvation, is man's response to God's work, salvation.

God doesn't have faith for us.
He doesn't give us faith.

He does something, and He chooses to save those who believe in Him in response to His action.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

God requires a man to have faith in Him before He will save him.

If a man does not have faith, he will not be saved by God.

Election has nothing to do with it.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise.

God doesn't have a time machine, He doesn't look through the corridors of time to see our actions in advance.

He died for all mankind, that whomever may believe, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

Hoping

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Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise.
And still, it isn't a "work" that Paul wrote about !!!
Circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, Sabbath keeping, etc., are the things that Paul wrote would not enhance our ability to be saved on the last day.
No man who does not turn from sin will be saved.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Many have objected to the reality that Faith/Believing is a work because they read in scripture where faith is contrasted to works like Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Yes Faith/Believing are contrasted with works, and the reason for that, Faith and or Believing are not of ourselves, but are Gifts of Gods Grace to a person, its only when we hijack that which finds it originating source from the Grace of God, and say, no my faith or believing originated from me and my nature, my freewill, then thats when the contrast no longer exists, then Faith and believing become your acts of the flesh, and that makes them your works.

To say one is Justified by Grace Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

and one is Justified by Faith Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Its saying the same thing if we keep in mind that Faith originates from Grace, and not of ourselves. If we believe that our Faith/Believing is because of the operation of Gods Grace, His Spirit, that its the Work of God in us being manifested Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

2 Thess 2:13


3 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification of the Spirit is describing the work of God the Spirit, and what follows is belief of the truth or faith. The word belief here is the noun pistis and translated faith 239 times in the NT

And what is the Truth that the work of the Spirit leads to ? Its the Gospel, notice vs 14


14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that word whereunto, its the prep eis which means towards, into, (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

The point and result of the sanctification of the Spirit was to result in the belief of the truth of the Gospel.

This passage shows that #1 Believing the truth is a work of God the Spirit confirming Jn 6:29 and #2 that regeneration is before and unto Faith in the Gospel.

But if we deny this, and insist that faith/believing is of ourselves, then you fall into the snare of Salvation/Justification being by your works.
 

JudgeRightly

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Many have objected to the reality that Faith/Believing is a work because they read in scripture where faith is contrasted to works like Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You're the one who keeps insisting it is a work. Are you changing your tune now?

Yes Faith/Believing are contrasted with works,

Thanks for conceding the entire discussion.

and the reason for that, Faith and or Believing are not of ourselves, but are Gifts of Gods Grace to a person,

Wrong.

The gift, being saved, is not of ourselves. But we are saved BY grace THROUGH FAITH. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1) the gospel is preached
2) a sinner hears the gospel
3) he has faith, believes
4) God saves him

That's the order.

The faith the sinner has is a response to God providing the gospel, it is not meritorious in and of itself.

its only when we hijack that which finds it originating source from the Grace of God, and say, no my faith or believing originated from me and my nature, my freewill, then thats when the contrast no longer exists,

No one says that.

Again, faith is a RESPONSE, not an original action. God sending His Son to die for the sinner is the original action, and someone having faith in God is the free response of the sinner, because he could have chosen to reject God, and not place his faith in God.

then Faith and believing become your acts of the flesh, and that makes them your works.

This is based on the above straw man argument you just made, and is thus invalid.

To say one is Justified by Grace Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

and one is Justified by Faith Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Its saying the same thing if we keep in mind that Faith originates from Grace, and not of ourselves.

Wrong.

You literally just got done quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, where it clearly shows that they're not the same thing.

Faith is the vehicle, the means, through which grace is delivered.

"For by grace are you saved through faith..." The faith is already there when the grace is given, so it can't be part of the grace.

If we believe that our Faith/Believing is because of the operation of Gods Grace, His Spirit, that its the Work of God in us being manifested

Translation: "Only Calvinists have been enlightened by God to know the truth."

Tell us more, oh enlightened one! /s

The problem is that our faith/believing CANNOT be something God gives us, because it is THROUGH FAITH that we are saved BY GRACE.

You have said before that faith is not what saves someone. WE AGREE!

Our faith is how God delivers HIS GRACE. Faith is not meritorious in and of itself, but God chose to use faith as a means to deliver His grace to us, because faith is a response to what HE did.

Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The work of God is that someone believes, not the belief itself!

"For by grace are you saved THROUGH FAITH, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith is the response to what God has done.

The work of God is finished, that you may believe.

2 Thess 2:13

3 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse DOES NOT SAY what you want it to say.

1) Paul is talking to those who are already saved.
2) Paul is NOT saying that God chose specific individuals AT the beginning. Rather, he is saying that God has always chosen people the same way, since the beginning: through faith.
3) Paul is ACTUALLY saying that God, from the beginning, chose individuals for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth.

3 here is the most important part that you keep (intentionally) misunderstanding. It's quite literally just expanding on what He said in Ephesians 2:8-9!

"God ... chose you to salvation through SANCTIFICATION . . . and BELIEF."
"For by grace are you saved through FAITH."

It's literally as simple as that.

Sanctification of the Spirit is describing the work of God the Spirit, and what follows is belief of the truth or faith.

There you go putting the cart before the horse again.

Sanctification of the Spirit occurs at the very moment God saves someone. That logically comes AFTER we have faith (by grace THROUGH faith).

Sanctification is part of the free gift of God's grace.

The word belief here is the noun pistis and translated faith 239 times in the NT

And?

And what is the Truth that the work of the Spirit leads to? Its the Gospel,

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

There's no "work of the spirit" mentioned here in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. What IS mentioned is the SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit, which, again, happens AT the moment of salvation, not before it, which means it necessarily comes AFTER one has faith (by grace through faith).

notice vs 14

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that word whereunto, its the prep eis which means towards, into, (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

"Whereunto" is just old English. "Eis" just means "to."

The way the Greek has it is "eis ho kai ekalesen..." which directly translates as "[to] [this] [also] [He called]..."

There's nothing special about the phrase.

The point and result of the sanctification of the Spirit was to result in the belief of the truth of the Gospel.

You're still putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, the Spirit works in peoples hearts prior to them being saved, but that work is not sanctification itself. The start of Sanctification is the goal of the Spirit in someone who is not saved, while the end goal for in the believer is glorification (perfect, complete, sanctification.

Sanctification begins at the moment of salvation.

This passage shows that #1 Believing the truth is a work of God the Spirit

No, it doesn't show that.

confirming Jn 6:29

What you say goes AGAINST what Jesus said, not confirms it.

and #2 that regeneration is before and unto Faith in the Gospel.

No, it doesn't show that.

But if we deny this, and insist that faith/believing is of ourselves, then you fall into the snare of Salvation/Justification being by your works.

Translation: If you don't believe what I say, then you're not a "True Christian (tm)."

Rather, we deny that regeneration comes before faith. We don't believe that faith is a work, nor do we believe that salvation is by our works.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
If our believing/faith is inherent, then its our work, our action to believe in God/Jesus Christ for all Salvation, but if its not naturally inherent, and it be the work and operation of the Spirit of God in us, also the effectual working of Gods grace, then its not of ourselves, but the Gift of God, then the proper contrast of Faith vs works is manifested.

Christ is the author of our Faith/Believing by giving us His Spirit 1 Pet 1:21

21 Who by him[Christ] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Eph 1:19


19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

Paul attributes his believing and the believers at Ephesus to the mighty working of Gods power, the same power that was exerted when He raised up Jesus from the dead.

So believing, having Faith and Hope in God in the matters of Salvation is Gods work for us and in us.

But if we insist that our believing and faith is of ourselves, then we make these things our work !
 

JudgeRightly

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If our believing/faith is inherent, then its our work, our action to believe in God/Jesus Christ for all Salvation, but if its not naturally inherent, and it be the work and operation of the Spirit of God in us, also the effectual working of Gods grace, then its not of ourselves, but the Gift of God, then the proper contrast of Faith vs works is manifested.

It is our responsibility, per God, to have faith, to believe.

It is ENTIRELY on God to provide salvation.

Christ is the author of our Faith/Believing by giving us His Spirit

AMEN!

The problem you face isn't to show this, because we already agree on this! It entirely misses the point of contention!

1 Pet 1:21

21 Who by him[Christ] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power


Yes, God gets the glory for saving us, for providing a means for us to put our faith in Him.

Doesn't mean that He doesn't require us to have faith in order for Him to save us.

Paul attributes his believing and the believers at Ephesus to the mighty working of Gods power...

Yeah, because OUR FAITH is a response to HIS WORK! HE gets the glory for bringing us back into His arms! Not us!

The point we are trying to show you, B57, isn't "we have faith, therefore we should get some credit for salvation," it's "we have faith as a response to what God did, therefore HE gets the credit for our salvation, because without Him sending His Son, we would be without hope."

So believing, having Faith and Hope in God in the matters of Salvation is Gods work for us and in us.

INDEED! But that doesn't mean that WE aren't the ones who have faith! Our faith is the RESULT of God's work in and for us!

But if we insist that our believing and faith is of ourselves, then we make these things our work!

No one said that faith is of ourselves.

I, in particular, have always pointed out to you that faith is OUR RESPONSE to what God has done, because the preaching of the gospel is sufficient to enable someone to have faith.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Faith or believing becomes our work for Salvation when and if we say Faith is the cause and not the result of our Salvation or Election to Salvation.

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say they are required of us for our election or Salvation

Faith or believing becomes our work when we say God has foresaw in us our faith /believing and saved or elected us to salvation on that premise.
Real faith will result in our salvation.
Without it we are lost.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
@JudgeRightly
It is our responsibility, per God, to have faith, to believe.

Actually its Gods responsibility for His People to believe, its His work Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is ENTIRELY on God to provide salvation.

Correct and with the Salvation He provides, with it He provides Faith/Believing Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This passage tells us that Not only is Salvation by Grace, but the Faith as well Salvation, Grace and Faith are the Gift of God. So the neuter word that, isnt just qualifying any one thing, it pertsins to Salvation, Grace, Faith all being the Gift of God.

If any of the three was of ourselves, it would be a reason to boast, because it would be our work or responsibility that aided us getting saved.

AMEN!

The problem you face isn't to show this, because we already agree on this! It entirely misses the point of contention!

Well if you agree that Faith isnt of ourselves, but the Gift of God, Christ authors it in us by His Spirit, then we agree, then Faith isnt a work of man, but if you believe that Faith is of ourselves, out of the natural man, then we dont agree

Yes, God gets the glory for saving us, for providing a means for us to put our faith in Him.

Oh No friend, God gets all the Glory because He also provides the Faith to believe in Christ. Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

See that, its given or its provided, bestowed on a person to believe on Him

Yeah, because OUR FAITH is a response to HIS WORK! HE gets the glory for bringing us back into His arms! Not us!

The believing response is because of the working of Gods power.
The point we are trying to show you, B57, isn't "we have faith, therefore we should get some credit for salvation," it's "we have faith as a response to what God did, therefore HE gets the credit for our salvation, because without Him sending His Son, we would be without hope."

And what Im showing you guys is that the faith that one puts in Christ is from God, therefore God gets also the credit for ones Faith in Christ, Faith in Christ is part of the Grace Saving Salvation package ! One believes because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[dia] because of grace:

INDEED! But that doesn't mean that WE aren't the ones who have faith! Our faith is the RESULT of God's work in and for us!

We do have Faith after and as a result of God saving us. Salvation is God work for us and in us. The only way to have Faith is if God saves us

No one said that faith is of ourselves.

Just saying, if one says that, its works

I, in particular, have always pointed out to you that faith is OUR RESPONSE to what God has done

And Im saying that Faith, our response is the Gift of Gods Grace, and not of ourselves. Look at it like this, the word response can also mean acknowledgement, like acknowledging the Truth as Per 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

You see that ? God gives acknowledgment to the Truth, or He gives a positive response to the Truth

See response is an action, its a mind work, its believing !


because the preaching of the gospel is sufficient to enable someone to have faith.

No its not, one has to have spiritual ears to hear the Gospel, and the Gospel must be accompanied with the Power of God, which is the Spirit of God, or else its just letter/word only preaching 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake

That word assurance is assurance of faith Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water
 

JudgeRightly

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You need to just use the "+Quote" button at the bottom of a person's post, instead of mentioning the person you're copying and pasting.

Actually its Gods responsibility for His People to believe, its His work

No.

It IS God's work that makes it possible for a man to believe. But it isn't God's responsibility to make us believe. You keep conflating these two things.

Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

"THAT YOU believe..."

His goal was to get them to believe through His miracle-working. His efforts went largely fruitless!

He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ ” - Luke 13:6-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke13:6-9&version=NKJV

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” - Matthew 11:21-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew11:21-24&version=NKJV

His work was intended to get them to believe, but they still had the option to refuse, and most did! The same is true with the Gospel. God's work is the spreading of the gospel. People still have the ability to refuse the gospel when it is presented to them.

Correct and with the Salvation He provides, with it He provides Faith/Believing

False.

Salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Meaning faith CANNOT BE a part of grace, as it is external to it.

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This passage does not say what you just said.

This passage tells us that Not only is Salvation by Grace,

Not once have I disagreed with that, so why bother to bring it up?

but the Faith as well Salvation,

Wrong. "For by grace through faith, salvation is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" would be a perfectly valid way of writing that verse.

Grace and Faith are the Gift of God.

Saying it doesn't make it so, and saying it repeatedly DEFINITELY doesn't make it so.

GRACE is that God is willing to save men. HIS, not man's, condition for HIS saving them is that they have faith in HIM.

If you're in prison, and someone comes into your cell and tells you that your debt has been paid, and you're free to go, you walking out of that cell not paying your own debt, the credit for that goes to God. You can still choose to sit there in that jail cell, and never leave it, but that's on you, because you are refusing the free gift of freedom.

Likewise, when the gospel is shared (faith comes by hearing) with a sinner, the sinner can either accept it, and be set free from sin and death, or he can wallow in his sin. If he accepts the gospel, and puts his faith in God, his faith is the vehicle by which he walks out of that jail cell. On the other hand, if he rejects it, then he will not be able to leave.

So the neuter word that, isnt just qualifying any one thing, it pertsins to Salvation, Grace, Faith all being the Gift of God.

False, as I just explained.

If any of the three was of ourselves, it would be a reason to boast,

No, it wouldn't, because faith isn't meritorious! It's not a work to begin with!

Faith is a RESPONSE, just as rejection is a RESPONSE. One can choose to have faith, in response to the gospel, or one can choose to reject the gospel, in response to it.

Faith doesn't earn a person the grace, because the grace is being given FREELY! It's a FREE GIFT! You can't EARN a FREE GIFT, and trying to pay for it would only be an insult to the Gift Giver!

because it would be our work or responsibility that aided us getting saved.

No, it wouldn't be, for the reasons explained above.

Well if you agree that Faith isnt of ourselves, but the Gift of God,

Don't conflate my words, B57.

Faith isn't of ourselves, because it is a RESPONSE to something that is EXTERNAL to us. Prior to our interaction with the gospel, having faith was impossible, because you can't have faith in something that you don't even know about.

Christ authors it in us by His Spirit,

Yes, Christ authors faith in us by His Spirit. But that DOES NOT MEAN that faith is a gift from God.

In one sense, it is, but I'm going to avoid going there because you'll only hear it in the way that you've trained yourself to think.

In reality, faith is something we do in response to God's act of salvation.

then we agree, then Faith isnt a work of man,

We agree that salvation is not a work, in that it isn't something you do to earn anything from God, but it IS something that a man must do for God to save Him, because God has conditioned His salvation on man's faith.

but if you believe that Faith is of ourselves,

I don't.

out of the natural man, then we dont agree

Supra.

Oh No friend, God gets all the Glory

AMEN!

because He also provides the Faith to believe in Christ.

Wrong. God makes it POSSIBLE to have faith. But faith itself is not provided by God.

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

AMEN!

See that, its given or its provided, bestowed on a person to believe on Him

What I see is you reading your a priori beliefs into the text.

Take off the Calvinism-tinted glasses for a moment.


The believing response is because of the working of Gods power.

Yes, just as the rejection response is IN SPITE OF the working of God's power.

Meaning faith isn't something that God gives, as if God could give an action to someone, but that it is a response of man TO something GOD has done.A

And what Im showing you guys is that the faith that one puts in Christ is from God,

I would agree with that, except that what you mean by it is completely different than what it actually says. In other words, you have different definitions for words that aren't the actual definitions, and they invalidate what you say, even though what you say is, taken at face value, technically correcct.

therefore God gets also the credit for ones Faith in Christ,

God gets credit for when someone has faith, because the faith is a response to what He did. But He does NOT get credit, as your position requires, because both those who have faith and those who reject Him are something He is responsible for bringing about in your system.

In my system, however, God gets the credit when one believes, but He does not get the credit when someone rejects Him, since the blame lies squarely upon the one who rejects Him.

Faith in Christ is part of the Grace Saving Salvation package!

No, it isn't.

One believes because of Grace

Grace is that God sent His Son to die on the Cross.

The application of that is what we call the gospel. By hearing the gospel, the hearer is enabled to believe or reject it. One is saved THROUGH belief, meaning that Grace is applied ("for by grace are you saved") when a man has faith ("through faith").

So yes, one believes because of grace, or he rejects God in spite of it.

Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[dia] because of grace:

The verse, which I agree with, is not saying that faith/belief comes after a man is saved. It's saying that salvation has been accomplished by God, and as a result, faith is now possible.

We do have Faith after and as a result of God saving us.

Wrong.

Salvation is God work for us and in us.

Yes it is.

The only way to have Faith is if God saves us

No. Faith comes by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD OF GOD, the gospel preached.

If you haven't heard the gospel, then you cannot be saved by it.

Just saying, if one says that, its works

You're beating a straw man and saying "look at me! I've thoroughly defeated my opponents!"

And I'm saying that Faith, our response is the Gift of Gods Grace,

And you'd be wrong on that part. Faith is not a gift. It is a response TO the gift.

and not of ourselves.

Which we agree on.

Look at it like this, the word response can also mean acknowledgement, like acknowledging the Truth

Yes, welcome to the discussion. Are you new here?

Faith is the acknowledgement of a man that he is in need of saving. That's it. It's not an attempt to save oneself, it's not a work, it has no merit in and of itself. It's simply saying "Yes, I recognize that I need a Savior, please save me!" to God.

as Per 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

More proof texting without actually understanding what is being said.

You see that? God gives acknowledgment to the Truth, or He gives a positive response to the Truth

What I see is a figure of speech being used that you have taken woodenly literally, as it says in literally the next verse: "that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil..."

Ever asked God to give you a clear mind before? That's what Paul is talking about here.

See response is an action, its a mind work, its believing!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

No its not,

Yes, it is.

Why do you deny scripture:

Faith comes by HEARING.
Hearing by the word of God.

How can someone call on Him of whom they have not believed?
How can they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
How can they hear without a preacher?

Preach the gospel, the sinner hears, and barring rejection, they believe in Him, have faith in Him, and call upon Him.

Whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved!

one has to have spiritual ears to hear the Gospel,

This is nothing but extra-Biblical nonsense.

There's no such thing as "spiritual ears"

According to Scripture, someone hears the gospel, and either believes it, or rejects it. That's it.

If they reject it, they remain dead in their sins.

If they accept it, they are saved.

It's literally as simple as that, so simple a child can understand it!

and the Gospel must be accompanied with the Power of God,

The gospel IS the power of God, because the Holy Spirit is what propagates it!

which is the Spirit of God, or else its just letter/word only preaching

Nonsense.

1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake

This happens ANY TIME the gospel is preached. Paul isn't saying that there's two types of sharing the gospel, the kind that isn't infused with the Holy Spirit and the kind that is. No, He's saying that whenever the gospel is preached, it's not just spoken words, it's actually meaningful, and is infused with the Holy Spirit!

Don't be so dense, B57!
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Thats why real faith is Gods working in a person !
Faith changed me, that's for sure.
But it was my own faith that God was real, and would either reward the just or punish the wicked, and I didn't want to be wicked anymore so decided to obey God from then on.
He didn't decide for me.
If He had decided to leave me in my wickedness, wouldn't He be the one to get punished?
All my evil deeds would have been His fault for leaving me in my wickedness.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Is Faith/believing a work ? Yes, but in its proper context its a work done through grace,the grace of the Spirit following new birth or new creation. Its written Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now believing Faith is one of those good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So believing follows the workmanship of God, being created in Christ Jesus unto good works, versus because of good works. Thats why works and faith in scripture can be contrasted, since believing is not of ourselves as natural men, but as new creatures in Christ. Its only when we claim faith/believing as coming from the natural man that the contrast is no longer valid!
 

JudgeRightly

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Is Faith/believing a work ? Yes,

Wrong. Faith is not a work. A "work" is something done in order to obtain a reward. Faith is not that, it is a recognition that one is UNABLE TO DO anything to obtain the reward that is eternal life.

but in its proper context its a work done through grace,

You've got it backwards, once again.

GRACE comes THROUGH FAITH, not faith through grace!

the grace of the Spirit following new birth or new creation.

Grace is applied through believing Christ was raised from the dead, "saved by His life!"

Its written Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

He's talking about the "good works" being prepared beforehand that we walk in, not being "created in Christ Jesus" beforehand.

In other words:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, for good works that God prepared beforehand we should walk in."

Now believing Faith is one of those good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

No, it's not.

Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


So believing follows the workmanship of God,

Belief follows the work of the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the unbelievers, but that isn't a guarantee that they will believe.

being created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

Which do not include "belief" or "faith."

versus because of good works. Thats why works and faith in scripture can be contrasted, since believing is not of ourselves

It is the RESPONSE to God working in us.

as natural men, but as new creatures in Christ.

Wrong.

We become new creatures when God saves us, which occurs AFTER we have faith.

Its only when we claim faith/believing as coming from the natural man

No one here does.

that the contrast is no longer valid!

The contrast is still valid, despite your false dichotomy. Faith is not a work.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Is Faith/believing a work ? Yes, but in its proper context its a work done through grace,the grace of the Spirit following new birth or new creation. Its written Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now believing Faith is one of those good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So believing follows the workmanship of God, being created in Christ Jesus unto good works, versus because of good works. Thats why works and faith in scripture can be contrasted, since believing is not of ourselves as natural men, but as new creatures in Christ. Its only when we claim faith/believing as coming from the natural man that the contrast is no longer valid!
We are originally and naturally dead Eph 2:2 Col 2:13 & Mat 22:32 but also Rom 14:9

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
 
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