ECT How alone is Grace alone salvation?

[turbosixx]

That man had no active walk of faith. The initial deposit he received was static, inoperable and dead just as a faith that has no activity. This person is like the branch that did not continue in the Vine but withered, died and was cast into the fire in John 15.

We are not saved by performing works of the Law or by any good deed but after we believe (i.e., put our faith in) in Christ we must continue to walk by faith. This walk will produce results which is called fruit in this metaphor but was called "earned interest" in the parable you cited.

Continuing to abide in Him is necessary if we are to receive final salvation and eternal life at the Judgment. This final aspect of eternal life and salvation is affirmed in many scriptures including the one I quoted.

45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:45-46)

That's the way I understand it. The bible gives us several examples of those being judged and I don't see any being cast out because they didn't believe but because they didn't do.

1 Jn. 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

 

[Nang]

You are the one who is weird. If a person is born spiritually dead then how can that same person die spiritually again later because of his own sin?

Ever heard of the "second death?" Revelation 20:6,14

Are you not even aware that a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually!

Because of Adam's original sin, and God's curse against sin imputed to all his offspring, no person is born a "spiritual" being. Humankind is corrupted flesh only.

All are conceived in sin and go astray in infancy.

 

[Nang]

That man had no active walk of faith. The initial deposit he received was static, inoperable and dead just as a faith that has no activity. This person is like the branch that did not continue in the Vine but withered, died and was cast into the fire in John 15.

We are not saved by performing works of the Law or by any good deed but after we believe (i.e., put our faith in) in Christ we must continue to walk by faith. This walk will produce results which is called fruit in this metaphor but was called "earned interest" in the parable you cited.

Continuing to abide in Him is necessary if we are to receive final salvation and eternal life at the Judgment. This final aspect of eternal life and salvation is affirmed in many scriptures including the one I quoted.

45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:45-46)

Because of the saving grace of God, and His gift of repentance and faith to us through His indwelling Holy Spirit, Christians WILL overcome and endure unto our ultimate salvation and everlasting life.

It is He who preserves us and enables us to persevere . . . so there are no "musts" or "necessary" requirements that we must add to our faith, in order to receive His promise of the Kingdom.

However, anyone who takes this truth to mean they can continue in the old life of the flesh, and not be concerned with the witness of Holy living while remaining in this world, are sadly mistaken, and your warnings indeed apply to them.

 

[glorydaz]

That's the way I understand it. The bible gives us several examples of those being judged and I don't see any being cast out because they didn't believe but because they didn't do.

1 Jn. 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

That's because those who believe have already been crucified with Christ, and do not come under condemnation. Gal. 2:20KJV Romans 8:1KJV

 

[Nang]

That's the way I understand it. The bible gives us several examples of those being judged and I don't see any being cast out because they didn't believe but because they didn't do.

1 Jn. 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Yes.

Matthew 7:21-23 is another example of what you post. Christians, known by God, will DO the will of the Father.

What is the will of the Father?

"As He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct because it is written, 'Be holy for I am holy.'" I Peter 1:15-16

And . . .

" . . The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth . .those who have DONE good, to the resurrection of life . ." John 5:28-29a

 

[turbosixx]

That's because those who believe have already been crucified with Christ, and do not come under condemnation. Gal. 2:20KJV Romans 8:1KJV

I agree but if you look at those verses it says "the life I live" and "walk after the Spirit". It matters how we "walk".
1 Jn. 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Col. 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard

 

[turbosixx]

Yes.

Matthew 7:21-23 is another example of what you post. Christians, known by God, will DO the will of the Father.

What is the will of the Father?

"As He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct because it is written, 'Be holy for I am holy.'" I Peter 1:15-16

And . . .

" . . The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth . .those who have DONE good, to the resurrection of life . ." John 5:28-29a

Amen

 

[musterion]

Incidentally, the phrasing of the poll is a mistake because option 3 should not exist. The choices are only between 1 and 2. Nang and Turbo are actually far more Option 2 than 1.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree but if you look at those verses it says "the life I live" and "walk after the Spirit". It matters how we "walk".
1 Jn. 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Believers do not and cannot walk in darkness, nor can they live in darkness. "If we say..." is your clue.

Also, John makes it clear that believing makes us "children of the light".

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.​

Paul tells believers they are not of darkness.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.​

Col. 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard

"That you have heard..." Not the gospel that you have believed. Lots of people hear the Gospel and move away. It's the believing of it that means we are created IN HIM, and cannot be moved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ever heard of the "second death?" Revelation 20:6,14

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire" (Rev.20:14-15).​

The second death is the lake of fire.

That is not what we are talking about. You are you arguing that a person who is already dead spiritually can die again spiritually even though he is not alive spiritually.

You turn reason on its head when you argue that someone who is already dead spiritually can die again spiritually while he remains dead.

Your mind has been warped!

 

[Nang]

You turn reason on its head when you argue that someone who is already dead spiritually can die again spiritually while he remains dead.​

Spiritually dead, unrepentant sinners, are born spiritually dead and remain spiritually dead their entire physical lives.

And worse, they will suffer the judgment of the second death, which means they will remain spiritually and physically dead and condemned forever. John 5:29

Mankind is born and dies under this curse of God; sentenced to death, both spiritually and physically, due to original sin plus their own sins.

You cannot deny this accursed state is real, if you hold the words of Galatians 3:13, as being the very Gospel of God.​

 

[musterion]

Spiritually dead, unrepentant sinners

Because God made them to be so.

 

[Nang]

Because God made them to be so.

Adam was spiritually alive and in communion with God when first created. He is held accountable in God's Word for death coming into the world. Romans 5:12-21

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Spiritually dead, unrepentant sinners, are born spiritually dead and remain spiritually dead their entire physical lives.

Over and over you throw your reason to the wind and assert that those who are already dead spiritually can die spiritually at a time when they remain dead spiritually. You cannot even understand the simple truth that before someone can die spiritually they must first be alive spiritually.

Here is what Paul said on this subject:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death." He also recognizes the fact that he was alive spiritually before he died spiritually.

 

[Nang]

Over and over you throw your reason to the wind and assert that those who are already dead spiritually can die spiritually at a time when they remain dead spiritually. You cannot even understand the simple truth that before someone can die spiritually they must first be alive spiritually.

Here is what Paul said on this subject:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death." He also recognizes the fact that he was alive spiritually before he died spiritually.

Can you explain how Paul ever literally lived apart from the Law?

No human being has ever known life, without God's commandments, for the Law was given by God to Adam immediately after creation. Genesis 1:28, 2:16-17,24, 3:1-3,11,17

So your interpretation of this passage cannot be correct.

Even the Lord Jesus Christ was born into this world under the Law; although without sin.

Therefore, the emphasis and major point of Paul's teaching in this passage, is that the Law declares all men guilty and condemned, because no man can keep the Law perfectly, and the Law universally reveals sin to all. Romans 3:9-20

Paul was not ever alive spiritually, until God knocked him off his horse and regenerated his soul to repent and believe God's words. Acts 9:3-20

 

[DAN P]

Hi and just where does it say that Paul REPENTED in Acts 9:6 !!

When did Paul receive the Holy Spirit ??

Tell us how a Calvinist IS SAVED USING BIBLE VERSES . , can you ?

Remember that Paul is the PATTERN of how a person id SAVED TODAY , 1 Tim 1:16 ??

You can tell them how Paul was SAVED , can you not ?

dan p

 

[Lon]

Proof that Open Theism protection of Free Will is correct and biblically sound!!

Oops... It came out!!! Cats out of the bag!!!!

I'll sometimes say 'proof' but such, imh estimation, leans more often toward sensationalism. I do believe there are proofs, rather than just evidence, that God exists, but because He is Spirit, critics have a point to object to proofs. That said, Paul said God is clearly seen that all men are without excuse (thus proof). So, I do give proof sets ( "if A = B, and B = C; then A = C").

The 'proof' in this case means it is likely true and is demonstrably true. I assume you mean that by Romans 7 so I'll look for it. It should be as clear as A = C else we'd say 'inkling of Open Theology" or "Seems to uphold Open Theology" etc. :think: Onward...

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? (Fruit of the Eternal Father that is Blameless and TriUne) Certainly not! (Affirmed) On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. (Did God give us the fruit or tell us not to eat it?). For I would not have known covetousness (Covet what? Isaiah 14:14) unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, (1 Cor. 15:54f, 56) taking opportunity by the commandment (1 Cor. 15:56), produced in me all manner of evil desire. (Heb. 2:14) For apart from the law sin was dead. (Gen. 2:16) 9 I was alive once without the law (Gen. 3:5) , but when the commandment came (Gen. 3:7 ... the opposite of 2 Cor. 5:7) , sin revived and I died (Heb. 2:14). 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life (John 16:9), I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me (Gen. 3:5 ... Rev. 12:9), and by it killed me. (Heb. 2:14) 12 Therefore the law is holy (Mk. 10:18), and the commandment holy and just (Gal. 3:24) and good. (Mk. 10:18)

Whoops... is that the original counter doctrine to the "false doctrine" of "Predestined original sin"?

What's the true doctrine of original sin? (John 16:9; Isaiah 14:14; Proverbs 16:18; Ezekiel 28:17; Obadiah 1:4; Mt. 23:12; 1 Pt. 5:6; Heb. 2:14; Gen. 3:5; 1Co. 15:54f; 56; Rev. 12:9)

Classical Origonal Sin Counter Doctrine Courtesy of the Apostel Paul? Yep!!!

I think 'inkling' at best and 'wrong' at worst and here is why: This is talking about our condition in conjunction with the law.
His proof set would look like this:

A) SInner, dying, but doesn't know it. Without God in the world, but in ignorant bliss.
B) Sinner, realizes there is a God, and that he is apart from God and because of sin, unacceptable to God : Troubled dying spirit.
C) Therefore, a knowledge of God's Laws doesn't create death, but an awareness of it.

Therefore, Romans 7 first, does not really discuss freewill theism (Romans 9 does by example) and second, it supports just as well, the idea of original sin, and because the law applies to all men (Romans 3:23) it actually is against any contenders as far as evidence. Did I prove that? :nono: I did, however, give good scriptural reasoning from A-C that my understanding is Biblical and from Romans 7.

Scriptural Royal Flush... Jesus wins ALL!

(John 5:39f ... John 16:9 ... Ephesians 2:8f)

I hope I've shown your cards aren't all the same suit, if even the same color. I'd suggest in this case, it was a bluff, because 1) all of Romans points to the opposite conclusion regarding original sin 2) That you seem to confuse the doctrine of Original sin with Free will (not the same and so you seem to be jumping around a bit in Christian doctrine without making connections) and 3) that Romans 7 rather is describing recognition of sin in all men, when any one of them sees the righteous requirements of God and realizes he, she, them, have all fallen short from the preceding chapter (Romans 3:23; 6:23).

 

[Shasta]

[MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION]

Proverbs 27:6 and Eccl. 3:7

Insults and mocking are not the "rebukes of a friend."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can you explain how Paul ever literally lived apart from the Law?

He said that he was "alive" apart from the law and then he died when he broke a commandment.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

In the following passage Paul speaks of that same death:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death. This idea is reinforced by the words of Paul ar Romans 7:9-11 where he states that he died when he broke one of the Ten Commandments.

Instead of letting the Scriptures be your guide on this subject you cling to your Calvinistic ideas and are able to somehow trick your mind into believe that a person can die spiritually at a time when he is already spiritually dead!

 

[Shasta]

In Galatians, Paul warns us about several deceptive teachings. One is that of the Judaizers who demanded that Christians follow various practices of Judaism. Another “deception” Paul addresses is “antinomianism.” Martin Luther coined this word to describe the belief that one can have a relationship with Christ while, at the same time, living in immorality.

In Galatians 6 Paul calls this idea "mocking God." It is like when children mock a teacher who gives orders but lacks the will to punish them.

…7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8 The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
(Galatians 6:7)

The underlined phrases one who sows is the Greek word speirōn which is a present tense participle. The fact that it is in the present tense indicates that this sowing (either to the flesh or the Spirit) is not a single action on a single occasion but an ongoing habit of life.

Clearly this verse does not support the idea that planting a seed once is sufficient to eternally secure our salvation. Rather, that event is supposed to be the beginning of a new way of life. Only a person who continues "sowing to please the Spirit" will reap a reward when the harvest comes. The harvest refers to the end time judgment when God will gather the nations and will say to those who have been faithful "enter into the Joy of the Lord." According to Paul in this passage, the reward for living a life of sowing to the Spirit is nothing less than eternal life.

http://biblehub.com/text/galatians/6-8.htm

The apostle also gives us an exhortation and a warning.
9 Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up.…
(Galatians 6:9)

We shall reap eternal life at the end ONLY if we persist and persevere.