Far Better To Build Immune System than Count on Vaccines

benben

Active member
Yeah well I'll be right there with them if it comes to a bullet flying revolution but I'm just saying that we will likely loose that war. The left has been working for years to secure control of the military brass and if we don't have the vast majority of the U.S. military, any such revolution is lost before it begins. One single division of the Air Force is all they'd need to detroy the entire state of Texas, less than that if they got desperate. So don't get too cocky about revolutions unless you want to usher in real despotism and end up begging for the days when Joe Biden was in power.
The military brass aren't the boots on the ground. All you'd get is a bunch of defectors. G.I. Joe isn't going to blow up his mom's house because fat Colonel Sanders gave the order from 1,000 miles away.
 

Clete

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Flu shot effectiveness varies by year. Flu cases are also hard to track because not everyone gets tested. Same with Chinavirus. Most people with it don't get tested. The new mRNA vaccine's effectiveness is all over the place. It works better against some variants than others, just like with the flu.

The big thing weighing against the novel vaccine is that it's new and doesn't have an established safety profile. I choose not to be a guinea pig in the name of science, and I don't demand that others be forced to.
The flu shots have only ever been about 50% effective or so. Depending on the strain (not quite the same thing as a variant, by the way) it could be bit better or worse than that but about %50 or so is a pretty reliable number. The point is, however, that the benefits gained even from that somewhat limited effectiveness far outweighs any risks associated with taking the vaccine.

The same is true of the COVID vaccines. They are far and away more effective than the flu vaccines and after hundreds of millions of administered doses, there is indication of any significant risks to those who take the vaccine and thus the benefits FAR out weigh the risks.

As for you choosing "not to be a guinnea pig", that's stupidity. If you choose not to take the vaccine for some rational reason, like a medical condition, allergy or even if its because you just don't see the need for it because of your age and overall health and therefore choose to pass then I'm all for your right to make that decision but there is no rational means of justifying the idea that you'd be a volunteer lab rat. The science could hardly be any clearer. These vaccines are both safe and effective. What is actually injected into you doesn't persist in your body for even a month and there is exactly zero indication that the anti-bodies that your body has produced have any effect on anything other than the proteins they are intended to defend against and even those only stick around for about eight months. In short, there isn't any reason to believe that there are any long term effects at all.
 

Clete

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The military brass aren't the boots on the ground. All you'd get is a bunch of defectors. G.I. Joe isn't going to blow up his mom's house because fat Colonel Sanders gave the order from 1,000 miles away.
You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

The boots on the ground are trained all day every day to do what they are told to do and that's precisely what the vast majority of them will do because that's what armies throughout history have done. Those who refuse will be made examples of.
 

marke

Well-known member
No one ever told anyone that "they would (i.e. could) never get sick from the vaccine". There is not a significant number of people who do.
Should the covid shot come with a warning like cigarette packs do? What do we say to those who do get sick from the covid shot, 'Suck it up, most people don't get sick?'
 

marke

Well-known member
Far less than six months. The possible need for a booster was expected from the very beginning and that isn't from television "experts" or politians but the actual people who produced the vaccines. There hasn't ever been anyone that I can recall who ever said that these vaccines would provide permanent protection. It has always been a 6 - 8 month time frame.
I don't have any respect for medicines built on the dead bodies of human babies
 

marke

Well-known member
Yeah well I'll be right there with them if it comes to a bullet flying revolution but I'm just saying that we will likely loose that war. The left has been working for years to secure control of the military brass and if we don't have the vast majority of the U.S. military, any such revolution is lost before it begins. One single division of the Air Force is all they'd need to detroy the entire state of Texas, less than that if they got desperate. So don't get too cocky about revolutions unless you want to usher in real despotism and end up begging for the days when Joe Biden was in power.
Jesus is coming back. Not only that but the Bible predicts the total destruction of the richest nation on earth just before He does. I'm not worried about democrats. I grieve for the suffering of people around the world because of the devil and his deluded followers.
 

benben

Active member
You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

The boots on the ground are trained all day every day to do what they are told to do and that's precisely what the vast majority of them will do because that's what armies throughout history have done. Those who refuse will be made examples of.

I can see you don't know many people in the military.
 

benben

Active member
The flu shots have only ever been about 50% effective or so. Depending on the strain (not quite the same thing as a variant, by the way) it could be bit better or worse than that but about %50 or so is a pretty reliable number. The point is, however, that the benefits gained even from that somewhat limited effectiveness far outweighs any risks associated with taking the vaccine.

I'm not against the flu shot and have no concerns about the long term effects simply because it has been around for a long time and we have a tremendous amount of data on it.
The same is true of the COVID vaccines. They are far and away more effective than the flu vaccines and after hundreds of millions of administered doses, there is indication of any significant risks to those who take the vaccine and thus the benefits FAR out weigh the risks.

The problem is you don't have enough data to claim that the benefits outweigh the risks because nobody knows what the long term risks are. There is no getting around that fact. You can assume the risks are low but you do not have evidence to support your position.

I'm not sure what you mean by "more effective than the flu vaccines" because you didn't qualify what you're comparing. The actual numbers of flu and COVID cases are unknown, so you must be looking at some other metric. (BTW the CDC gives a range of estimated flu deaths that has a spread in the thousands.. a tacit admission that they don't know either)
As for you choosing "not to be a guinnea pig", that's stupidity.

Are you actually saying that not wanting to put oneself at unnecessary risk is "stupidity"? How so?

If you choose not to take the vaccine for some rational reason, like a medical condition, allergy or even if its because you just don't see the need for it because of your age and overall health and therefore choose to pass then I'm all for your right to make that decision but there is no rational means of justifying the idea that you'd be a volunteer lab rat.

Well, as a matter of fact I do have other reasons. I've gotten COVID, didn't have a severe case, and now I have some natural immunity. I also object to the vaccines on the grounds that they used a cell line from an aborted baby for testing.

The science could hardly be any clearer. These vaccines are both safe and effective.

"Effective" must be qualified. Effective at preventing spread, infection, death.. what? As I said, the vaccines do something but there is a risk/reward calculation to be made here. Whether it's effective at preventing an infection is of no interest to me for reasons I've already stated.

What is actually injected into you doesn't persist in your body for even a month and there is exactly zero indication that the anti-bodies that your body has produced have any effect on anything other than the proteins they are intended to defend against and even those only stick around for about eight months. In short, there isn't any reason to believe that there are any long term effects at all.

There is a rare possibility of retro-transposons integrating the RNA into one's DNA. As far as I know this hasn't happened, but that's what makes it concerning. With millions of doses, what are the consequences if it does?

There are also the very real side-effects of thrombocytopenia, myocarditis, and pericarditis, all of which can have long-term consequences. Let's not pretend the vaccine is 100% risk-free.
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
Flu shot effectiveness varies by year. Flu cases are also hard to track because not everyone gets tested. Same with Chinavirus. Most people with it don't get tested. The new mRNA vaccine's effectiveness is all over the place. It works better against some variants than others, just like with the flu.

The big thing weighing against the novel vaccine is that it's new and doesn't have an established safety profile. I choose not to be a guinea pig in the name of science, and I don't demand that others be forced to.
LABRAT~1.jpg
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Jesus is coming back. Not only that but the Bible predicts the total destruction of the richest nation on earth just before He does. I'm not worried about democrats. I grieve for the suffering of people around the world because of the devil and his deluded followers.
chapter and verse ?
 

JudgeRightly

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This isn't a NY mandate on businesses?: NEW YORK—Mayor Bill de Blasio today announced the Key to NYC vaccination mandate for indoor dining, entertainment and fitness will start tomorrow, August 17. Enforcement will begin, with a multi-agency coalition, on September 13. Read the Executive Order here.

And beyond that, the short term results are fine for the vaccine. But you have to admit that I'm being reasonable and following the science if I want to wait for the long term results and since I'm in a demographic where COVID is less deadly than the regular flu.

And then there is giving tyrants like de Blasio positive feedback. I'm saving lives by not doing what he says even if there was a pandemic.

Now, before you go off emotionally about there not being a pandemic, let me clarify. If COVID was a pandemic then we have a pandemic every flu season. I think the word pandemic should mean something so that word should be used for something much worse than even a bad flu season. And thus, the fact remains, had we used the treatments available and protected the vulnerable, there would have been zero excess deaths in 2020 (or only as bad as a bad flu season). Since the worst of the "pandemic" and its variants are passed, the best way out of this is not the vaccines but to treat this disease like we treat the yearly flu. That's nothing against the vaccines, but treating the vaccines as a support like we normally do.

@Clete (not directed solely at you, but figured I'd tag you, as you were involved in the discussion regarding something similar)

 

marke

Well-known member
chapter and verse ?
Revelation 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
 

Yorzhik

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I agree but the word pandemic has no meaning at all if COVID 19 doesn't count as one.

Perhaps it no longer qualifies as one but it certainly did in the spring and summer of 2020 when it was declared as such.

The flu wouldn't normally count as a pandemic because it is an endemic disease. If a new strain comes out that is particularly virulent then that might be called a pandemic like the Spanish Flu was, for example but the term pandemic has a pretty specific definition. It's basically an epidemic of a non-endemic infectous disease that is happening is multiple countries at once. Here's the definition that wikipedia gives...

A pandemic (from Greek πᾶν, pan, "all" and δῆμος, demos, "local people" the 'crowd') is an epidemic of an infectious disease that has spread across a large region, for instance multiple continents or worldwide, affecting a substantial number of people. A widespread endemic disease with a stable number of infected people is not a pandemic. Widespread endemic diseases with a stable number of infected people such as recurrences of seasonal influenza are generally excluded as they occur simultaneously in large regions of the globe rather than being spread worldwide.

By that definition I think COVID 19 still stands as a pandemic.

Clete
It was only a pandemic because effective treatment was demonized. Since the conspiracy theorists were right on that, it makes other conspiracies about the same people look like they should get a serious look. And they are the same people that are pushing the vaccine like mad-men.

BTW, what do you think about Biden's "our patience is wearing thin" comment. Doesn't that sound ominous to you?
 

ok doser

Well-known member
It was only a pandemic because effective treatment was demonized. Since the conspiracy theorists were right on that, it makes other conspiracies about the same people look like they should get a serious look. And they are the same people that are pushing the vaccine like mad-men.

BTW, what do you think about Biden's "our patience is wearing thin" comment. Doesn't that sound ominous to you?
Somebody should remind Joe that one of the most represented demographics with regards to vaccine hesitancy is African-Americans.
 
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