ECT Does what we do reflect what we believe?

[Tambora]

• David was given the Holy Spirit before he committed adultery.
• David prayed to not have the Holy Spirit taken from him after he committed adultery.
• David was forgiven by God for adultery and spared the consequence under the law.
• David never turned aside from anything God commanded him after he repented.

In light of those facts, it's reasonable to say the Holy Spirit didn't prevent David from committing adultery; but how do you explain him keep the law after that?

Was the cause of his reform the Holy Spirit that was renewed in him, or his own efforts to keep the Mosaic laws, or both?

Yes, the Spirit was always with David.

1 Samuel 16 KJV
(13) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.​

And yes, he committed murder and adultery while he had the Spirit.


As to what caused him to keep the law, I'm sure it was a combination of things, the Spirit included.
He also had the law; a check list for him to follow.
Don't commit adultery (any more), CHECK.
Don't murder (any more), CHECK.

But we also know that keeping the law is not what saves a person.
The rich young ruler was also said to have kept the law, but it didn't guarantee him eternal life.
So even if it was only the Spirit that made him keep the law, it did not save him.
Because the law is not of faith, and that by the works of the law will no flesh be justified.
The just shall live by faith.

 

[glorydaz]

John identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26 NKJV)

David repented.

Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast Spirit within me.

Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. (Psalm 51:9-12 NKJV)​

The Holy Spirit could come and go in the OT.....

The Comforter abides forever, but could not come until Christ had departed.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.​

 

[glorydaz]

There are two things to consider. Unrepented sin will prelude a person from the kingdom of God but does not preclude salvation after death.

There is no salvation after death.
Are you saying after we die?

Where do you get that idea?

 

[Sherman]

Doesn't appear to be.

I'm sticking with John W. on this one.

I didn't have to act any better or worse to be saved, and I don't have to act any better or worse to stay saved.
My salvation is a done deal.

I rely on the righteousness of Christ, not my own.

While this statement is very true, what or who you love does shape your behavior. It's not something you work at. It's part of human nature.

Case in point, I am a retired sailor. I am still love the Navy life. My wall on Facebook is full a Navy stuff. I also deeply love God. You'll find Christian stuff on my wall too. Because I love God there are just some things I cannot tolerate.

 

[Cross Reference]

While this statement is very true, what or who you love does shape your behavior. It's not something you work at. It's part of human nature.

Case in point, I am a retired sailor. I am still love the Navy life. My wall on Facebook is full a Navy stuff. I also deeply love God. You'll find Christian stuff on my wall too. Because I love God there are just some things I cannot tolerate.

What she is confusing salvation with is, "Redemption". John 3:16 KJV is the short version of that being what God did without anyone having to qualify. Because of "Redemption" is salvation made possible but contingent upon one's faith for receiving it. I use the KJV for my understanding.

 

[OCTOBER23]

Does what we do reflect what we believe?

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What we Believe reflects what we do.
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[jamie]

There is no salvation after death.
Are you saying after we die?

Where do you get that idea?

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5 NKJV)​

The Book of Life is opened to these people.

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. (Revelation 20:12 NKJV)​

 

[jamie]

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

With regard to another Comforter the word "another" means different.

Jesus was physical but said he would come to them in a different form. He comes to us as Spirit.

 

[chrysostom]

Does what we do reflect what we believe?

of course it does
why wouldn't it?
you can't always believe what someone says
but
you can believe what they do is what they are

 

[Nihilo]

Does what we do reflect what we believe?

=============================

What we Believe reflects what we do.
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That's hardcore fatalism. Ask me how I know.

 

[elohiym]

That's hardcore fatalism. Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

 

[Nihilo]

Consider that the Lord said we can know a tree by its fruit, and the Apostle John wrote, "you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Since eternal life abiding in the believer is the primary evidence of belief

I don't believe nor grant that. There is no primary evidence of belief, beyond participation in the sacraments of the Church, if you demand evidence. Hebrews 11:1

, it follows that a murderer, at least while committing the act, is not a believer.

Inasmuch as the murder is totally freely chosen and undertaken, the Holy See agrees with you.

Yes, and when we consider David's sin, we must also consider his prayer (Psalm 51) and that he never sinned again after his repentance. It is written: "David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

And we should consider John's parents when imagining the idea of David keeping the law for the rest of his life after his repentance. Luke 1:6.

Why doesn't everyone do that? Is it possible to do? Can't an idea we believe or the Spirit we receive cause us to not murder, steal, commit adultery or covet?

The Church prefers to follow our Lord's Beatific Vision as delivered on the Mountain as a model for sainthood. But they're pretty close (the law and the beatitudes).

 

[ClimateSanity]

Is your gospel the same as their gospel?





Who is correct, and why? Are they all wrong?

Discuss.

Glorydaz, doser and me would all agree with John and Tam that no sin,including murder, can remove someone from the body of Christ. We are saying the likelihood that any true Christian would murder is very unlikely.... .00001% likely.

So, your intent to drive a wedge within the body of Christ failed miserably despite your best effort.

 

[Nihilo]

How do you know?

Large chunk of my life.

 

[elohiym]

Glorydaz, doser and me would all agree with John and Tam that no sin,including murder, can.remove someone from the body of Christ. We are saying the likelihood that any true Christian would murder is very unlikely.... .00001% likely.

We? No, that's not the impression I'm getting.

 

[elohiym]

Consider that the Lord said we can know a tree by its fruit, and the Apostle John wrote, "you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Since eternal life abiding in the believer is the primary evidence of belief

I don't believe nor grant that. There is no primary evidence of belief, beyond participation in the sacraments of the Church, if you demand evidence. Hebrews 11:1

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

Does a believer have eternal life? Yes.

"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

Does a murderer have eternal life? No.

Rapist same.

Inasmuch as the murder is totally freely chosen and undertaken, the Holy See agrees with you.

I'm glad to know that.

 

[Nihilo]

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

Does a believer have eternal life? Yes.

"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

Does a murderer have eternal life? No.

Rapist same.

Eternal life is not evidence, is all I meant. We can't see it. A lab or team of postdocs cannot confirm its presence or absence.

I'm glad to know that.

I believe you.

 

[glorydaz]

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5 NKJV)​

The Book of Life is opened to these people.

And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. (Revelation 20:12 NKJV)​

That doesn't say they get saved after death.

 

[glorydaz]

With regard to another Comforter the word "another" means different.

Jesus was physical but said he would come to them in a different form. He comes to us as Spirit.

The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same Spirit of the One God. The point is that the Holy Spirit was not given to dwell permanently in men until after Jesus had risen. It's why David prayed God not to take the Spirit from him. We don't have to pray that prayer.

 

[elohiym]

Eternal life is not evidence, is all I meant. We can't see it.

How can we know a tree by its fruit?