elohiym
Well-known member
Is your gospel the same as their gospel?
Who is correct, and why? Are they all wrong?
Discuss.
ECT Does what we do reflect what we believe?
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Is your gospel the same as their gospel?
Who is correct, and why? Are they all wrong?
Discuss.
Doesn't appear to be.
I'm sticking with John W. on this one.
I didn't have to act any better or worse to be saved, and I don't have to act any better or worse to stay saved.
My salvation is a done deal.
I rely on the righteousness of Christ, not my own.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
doser explains simply and clearly:
elo, who would be confused by a choice between a glass of lemonade and a box of carpet tacks, is confused:
elo, who would be confused by a choice between a glass of lemonade and a box of carpet tacks, is confused:
Cross Reference
New member
I asked the question elsewhere if our conception of God determined our dedication? How might the compare with your question?
elohiym
Well-known member
I agree.
I believe you merit salvation strictly for being God's child, as you know. Nobody merits salvation for keeping laws, or keeping them better than other people.
Does the Spirit in you have power to effect your behavior?
A believer is living His life (Galatians 2:20), so how can that lead to rape? :idunno:
glorydaz
Well-known member
I rely on the righteousness of Christ, too, but I also trust in His work in me. Those who are saved are new creatures. I was a different person before I was saved than I am now. There is a reason for that, and pretending it's not true doesn't change the fact. Too many profess they know God....and even brag they haven't changed in the least from when they were unsaved. They need to examine themselves....
Titus 1:15-16
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
elohiym
Well-known member
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
they're certainly welcome to do all the raping they like, as far as i'm concerned :idunno:
It's wrong to say that someone who commits a grave moral offense is therefore not a Christian and never was.
It's wrong to say that adultery or other grave moral offenses are unimportant if you're a Christian.
I like the Holy See's counsel, to always confess grave matter if it appears in your life, and to take grave matter very, very seriously.
elohiym
Well-known member
Is it possible the person was never a Christian? If it is, then it's not necessarily wrong. It could be wrong though, granted; David may be an example of that.
glorydaz
Well-known member
John W says he could do any number of things and still be justified. I've yet to see him say he would actually DO any of those things he lists out.
If I were a bird, I could fly, but I'm not a bird.
elohiym
Well-known member
You're welcome to participate in the discussion.
Of course, it's just not necessarily the case. I wouldn't even say that it's therefore likely that they aren't and never were a Christian.
We must always consider David when talking about stuff like this. Our Maker Himself says that he is, "a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will," and that was a quote from deep in Acts (Ac13:22), well after his adultery-murder.
glorydaz
Well-known member
David didn't have the Comforter....he was not a new creature as the Comforter had not yet come.
elohiym
Well-known member
I understand, and I'm not claiming either of you would do those things. I get the theological principle you are trying to convey but disagree with the conclusion because it doesn't emphasize the wouldn't do, the result of being a new creature.
If I were a bird, I could fly, but I'm not a bird.
Jesus could have said that to the devil during the temptation. He makes a similar point.
Sure.
Along with several other things that effect by behavior.
If you are asking if the Spirit prevents any believer from ever committing adultery, theft, rape, lying, coveting, calling people names, questioning a believers faith, etc., then I would have to say no He does not.
elohiym
Well-known member
Consider that the Lord said we can know a tree by its fruit, and the Apostle John wrote, "you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Since eternal life abiding in the believer is the primary evidence of belief, it follows that a murderer, at least while committing the act, is not a believer.
Yes, and when we consider David's sin, we must also consider his prayer (Psalm 51) and that he never sinned again after his repentance. It is written: "David did what was right in the sight of the LORD, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
And we should consider John's parents when imagining the idea of David keeping the law for the rest of his life after his repentance. Luke 1:6.
Why doesn't everyone do that? Is it possible to do? Can't an idea we believe or the Spirit we receive cause us to not murder, steal, commit adultery or covet?
elohiym
Well-known member
- David was given the Holy Spirit before he committed adultery.
- David prayed to not have the Holy Spirit taken from him after he committed adultery.
- David was forgiven by God for adultery and spared the consequence under the law.
- David never turned aside from anything God commanded him after he repented.
In light of those facts, it's reasonable to say the Holy Spirit didn't prevent David from committing adultery; but how do you explain him keep the law after that?
Was the cause of his reform the Holy Spirit that was renewed in him, or his own efforts to keep the Mosaic laws, or both?
John identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26 NKJV)
David repented.
Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast Spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. (Psalm 51:9-12 NKJV)
Do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me by Your generous Spirit. (Psalm 51:9-12 NKJV)
There are two things to consider. Unrepented sin will prelude a person from the kingdom of God but does not preclude salvation after death.