Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[JudgeRightly]

So a spiritually dead sinner does have hope. What about these spiritually dead sinners Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

You need to pay attention to what the verse says. See the highlighted portion in the quote.

Then read literally the next verse!

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:13&version=NKJV

 

[beloved57]

You need to pay attention to what the verse says. See the highlighted portion in the quote.

Then read literally the next verse!

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:13&version=NKJV

Right at that time they were without hope and without God, so their so called freewill wasnt even a factor.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Right at that time they were without hope and without God, so their so called freewill wasn't even a factor.

You still aren't getting it.

It's BECAUSE OF CHRIST that they have hope. Prior to them hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, they had no hope. But AFTER they hear the gospel, they CAN have hope, because HE has the power to set them free from their dead and hopeless state!

This is why evangelism is so important, yet completely contrary to what a calvinist believes! It's contrary because according to the calvinist, whether we witness to someone or not, it makes absolutely no difference eternally, since according to calvinism, a person is predestined to heaven or hell before the foundation of the world, which is unilaterally decided upon by God Himself!

Evangelism inherently implies that they HAVE a choice, that their future is NOT predetermined, that there is still hope for the unbeliever who hears the gospel of Christ!

 

[beloved57]

You still aren't getting it.

It's BECAUSE OF CHRIST that they have hope. Prior to them hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, they had no hope. But AFTER they hear the gospel, they CAN have hope, because HE has the power to set them free from their dead and hopeless state!

This is why evangelism is so important, yet completely contrary to what a calvinist believes! It's contrary because according to the calvinist, whether we witness to someone or not, it makes absolutely no difference eternally, since according to calvinism, a person is predestined to heaven or hell before the foundation of the world, which is unilaterally decided upon by God Himself!

Evangelism inherently implies that they HAVE a choice, that their future is NOT predetermined, that there is still hope for the unbeliever who hears the gospel of Christ!

They were without hope and God, Jesus is God.

 

[Clete]

They were without hope and God, Jesus is God.

You're missing (ignoring) the point. The point is that you're reading your doctrine into the text. It simply doesn't teach what you're implying.

People are without hope until they hear the gospel but that isn't an observation about their ability to choose. The bible teaches, and our own lives confirm every day, that our will is real and that we can and do choose and that those choices have real consequences that we ourselves are responsible for because we made a choice.

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.​

​

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”​

​

That is only one of a whole list of passages (not single, out of context, verses but whole passages) of scripture that the Calvinist just ignores. I don't recall ever having you or any other Calvinist on this forum address the above passage (or others like Ezekiel 18 (the whole chapter)) with any substance at all. They just breeze right past it like I didn't quote it or, at most, they'll claim that it is a figure of speech but won't explain how they know its a figure of speech or what such a lengthy figure of speech could possibly mean. I remember one Calvinist, years ago, having the temerity to proudly proclaim that he knew such passages were figures of speech because of his doctrine and then he'd chastise me and others for begging the question when we disagreed!

The fact is that Calvinist like to proclaim their devotion to God's word but their primary allegiance is to Plato's concept of an immutable god that was introduced into Christianity primarily by Augustine of Hippo in the 4th Century. Without Platonist colored classes on, the bible cannot be understood to teach a single syllable of any distinctively Calvinist doctrine.

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

They were without hope and God,

Past tense. WERE.

"But now..." they have hope, because Christ came to die for them!

Jesus is God.

Duh...

 

[beloved57]

Past tense. WERE.

"But now..." they have hope, because Christ came to die for them!



Duh...

Man is still without hope and God in their natural selves. Man even now are by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So as long as man is natural, by nature, he is of the children of wrath, cant freewill ourselves out of it. Plus by nature, man doesnt even seek the True God Rom 3:11

 

[JudgeRightly]

Man is still without hope and God in their natural selves.

Which is why Christ came to die for them, so that they have hope. Simply hearing the gospel is enough to enable them to heed it.

Man even now are by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

No.

This verse isn't saying what you want it to say.

So as long as man is natural, by nature, he is of the children of wrath, cant freewill ourselves out of it.

Free will is not a superpower.

People who are natural, when they hear the gospel, are no longer without hope, because the gospel itself is powerful enough to enable them to respond to God's drawing THROUGH the gospel.

Plus by nature, man doesnt even seek the True God Rom 3:11

Thank God that He gave Paul the gospel of grace, that whomever may hear it is enabled TO seek the True God.

 

[7djengo7]

Man is still without hope and God in their natural selves. Man even now are by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So as long as man is natural, by nature, he is of the children of wrath, cant freewill ourselves out of it. Plus by nature, man doesnt even seek the True God Rom 3:11

Now, am I mistaken in thinking that, according to TULIP theology, some men (Calvinism's "eternally reprobate") are, by God's will, particularly predetermined/foreordained to wrath?

Also, could it ever be rational to say that Calvinism's "eternally elect" had ever, in any sense, been by nature children of wrath? I don't see that it could.

 

[Clete]

Now, am I mistaken in thinking that, according to TULIP theology, some men (Calvinism's "eternally reprobate") are, by God's will, particularly predetermined/foreordained to wrath?

Also, could it ever be rational to say that Calvinism's "eternally elect" had ever, in any sense, been by nature children of wrath? I don't see that it could.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)

 

[Clete]

Calvinists, most of them anyway, seem to be somewhat schizophrenic when it comes to this double predestination issue. Most of them will say that they do NOT accept the idea that God has predestined some people to Heaven and some people to Hell but when presented with the quotes that I posted in that last post (and several others like it) I can't find hardly any Calvinist who will denounce what those quotes say.

beloved57 is one of the very few that has been entirely consistent. He flat out does not care what the doctrine implies about God's character, he doesn't care if it sounds bad, he doesn't care if anyone likes it or not. He is 100% in bed with Calvin and every syllable of what he taught in "Institutes" no matter what it is. He believes that God has predestine absolutely every single solitary event that has or will ever happen - period. He is willing redefine any word, phrase, precept or doctrine in order to preserve the idea that God is utterly immutable.

If nothing else, b57 has the courage of his convictions and is willing to stand by the implications of the things he claims to believe.

 

[beloved57]

clete

He is 100% in bed with Calvin and every syllable of what he taught in "Institutes" no matter what it is.

I have barely read ten sentences from his institutes friend.

 

[Clete]

clete



I have barely read ten sentences from his institutes friend.

That is irrelevant.

The point is you've never done anything but agree with every syllable of it that you have read.

Plus, you've likely read much more of it than you think. 99.44% of what Calvinists teach comes practically verbatim right out of that book and you WOULD NOT have ever heard of any of it, had Calvin not written it. There would be no such thing as Calvinism, without Calvin's Institutes. The very fountain head of Calvinism is Calvin's Institutes and it is just a reformation version of Augustinian doctrine which Augustine imported from Platonism.

It is quite unfortunate that you are so totally ignorant of your own doctrine's history but what's worse than that is that you don't care what that history is nor what it means. You're a Calvinist - period. You don't really care to know whether it holds water or not. You believe it and that's it. In fact, a great many Calvinists think that such mindless (mindless as in intentionally anti-rational) devotion to Calvinist doctrine is the very definition of "piety" and I know for certain that you think Calvinism is the very gospel itself. After all, why would God predestine people for salvation and not predestine them to have their doctrine correct?

Clete

 

[beloved57]

Man naturally doesnt seek after God because we by nature are 100% carnal, even in our morality and religiosity. Scripture declares that the carnal mind is enmity against God, the True God that is Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Notice its enmity against God, not against morality, religion, carnal man approves of those things. So what man needs is a new mind, a change of mind, repentance. Its imperative that man be given repentance which is a change of mind. The word repentance used in the NT Acts 11:18 is
metanoia:

1. a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Without this change of mind, mans carnal mind remains enmity against God !

 

[JudgeRightly]

So what man needs is a new mind, a change of mind, repentance. Its imperative that man be given repentance which is a change of mind.

Why must it be given to him?

Sounds like you're begging the question that man cannot respond to the gospel of his own will.

The word repentance used in the NT Acts 11:18 is
metanoia:

1. a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

Without this change of mind, mans carnal mind remains enmity against God !

Why do you think that the gospel shared cannot enable a natural man to change his mind?

 

[beloved57]

Why must it be given to him?

Sounds like you're begging the question that man cannot respond to the gospel of his own will.



Why do you think that the gospel shared cannot enable a natural man to change his mind?

Didnt you just read what I posted. The carnal mind is enmity against God. The Gospel is Gods Gospel, so the carnal mind is enmity against Gods Gospel. The Gospel of God Rom 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

 

[JudgeRightly]

Didn't you just read what I posted.

Yes, hence the question I asked.

The carnal mind is enmity against God.

You've said that already.

The Gospel is Gods Gospel, so the carnal mind is enmity against Gods Gospel. The Gospel of God Rom 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

This does nothing to answer my questions.

Here they are again:

[Why must repentance be given to a man? It sounds like you're begging the question that man cannot respond to the gospel of his own will.]

[Why do you think that the gospel shared cannot enable a natural man to change his mind?]

 

[beloved57]

Yes, hence the question I asked.



You've said that already.



This does nothing to answer my questions.

Here they are again:

[Why must repentance be given to a man? It sounds like you're begging the question that man cannot respond to the gospel of his own will.]

[Why do you think that the gospel shared cannot enable a natural man to change his mind?]

I told you already. Mans mind is carnal and enmity against God, so to be able to seek after God, the True God, he needs a change of mind. Repentance is a change of mind, to one thats not enmity against God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I told you already. Mans mind is carnal and enmity against God,

You're missing my point of contention.

so to be able to seek after God, the True God, he needs a change of mind.

That's not answering my question. I agree the natural man needs to change his mind, to repent. But my question is about HOW his mind gets changed, not WHETHER it needs to be changed.

Why can't the gospel enable a natural man to change his own mind? Why does it have to be God Himself that changes it for him

Repentance is a change of mind, to one thats not enmity against God.

Supra.

 

[beloved57]

You're missing my point of contention.



That's not answering my question. I agree the natural man needs to change his mind, to repent. But my question is about HOW his mind gets changed, not WHETHER it needs to be changed.

Why can't the gospel enable a natural man to change his own mind? Why does it have to be God Himself that changes it for him



Supra.

Your contention is just that contention. Mans natural mind is enmity against God, it hates God, so God, when it comes to His Elect, He gives the person a new mind, a new heart, which are suitable for friendship and communion with the True God. He doesnt enable the carnel mind, He gives a new one, a new heart, a new Spirit Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Thats how God works !