Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

JudgeRightly

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Your contention is just that contention.

It's an apparent problem with your position. You need to provide more about your position that resolves the apparent problem. Hence my questions.

Mans natural mind is enmity against God, it hates God,

Still missing the point of contention, and now you're just repeating yourself (not that you weren't before...).

so God, when it comes to His Elect, He gives the person a new mind, a new heart, which are suitable for friendship and communion with the True God.

Except that didn't happen for many of God's Elect, especially for the Levites.

He doesn't enable the carnal mind,

Not what I said.

My contention is that the gospel, when presented to an unbeliever, is perfectly capable of enabling him of changing his mind, repenting to God.

He gives a new one, a new heart, a new Spirit Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This was written EXPRESSLY for ISRAEL, not the Body of Christ.

Thats how God works!

It's not how He works today.
 

JudgeRightly

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Whose body are Christians?
Christ's body.

Yes.

There's a huge difference between an organism and a nation.

Guess which one Israel is.

As Christ was a Jew, any promise to Him is also to everybody in Him.

Nope. That's NOT how that works.

Believers in the Body of Christ are a NEW CREATURE.

We are not/do not become part of a nation called "Israel."
 

Hoping

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Yes.
There's a huge difference between an organism and a nation.
That is why it is prudent to mention which Israel we refer to in our writings.
Guess which one Israel is.
Depends on the context.
Nope. That's NOT how that works.
Believers in the Body of Christ are a NEW CREATURE..
We are not/do not become part of a nation called "Israel."
Agreed, the converted are the Israel that is not a nation.
I like the way that Paul differentiates the two...
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
Juxtaposed with...
"18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?" (1 Cor 10:16-18)
The converted are "Israel after the Spirit".
 

JudgeRightly

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That is why it is prudent to mention which Israel we refer to in our writings.

There's only one. It's literally called the nation of Israel.

Depends on the context.

Israel is the nation. The Body of Christ is the organism.

They are not the same.

Agreed, the converted are the Israel that is not a nation.

WRONG.

There is no such thing as "the Israel that is not a nation," because Israel, BY DEFINITION is a nation.

I like the way that Paul differentiates the two...

The very fact that he differentiates the two (Israel vs BoC) should clue you in to the fact that they ARE NOT THE SAME!

Things that differ... Hmm... Where have I heard that before...

Oh, right:

Things that Differ: The Fundamentals of Dispensationalism https://g.co/kgs/T8AYm3

The converted are "Israel after the Spirit".

Saying it doesn't make it so, Hoping!
 

7djengo7

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He believes that God has predestine absolutely every single solitary event that has or will ever happen - period.

That idea makes me wonder, were it true, just what one is then supposed to do with the doctrine of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and the idea of its being uniquely important. To be consistent with the Calvinist's "absolute predestination" way of thinking, should not, say, the Koran be considered by the Calvinist as having been ultimately authored by YHWH, no less than the Bible was? I mean, if the production of the Koran (as well as of this month's issue of People) was predestined by YHWH, would it not make YHWH the author of those (as well as of all) evil and erroneous (or at least frivolous) texts?
 

JudgeRightly

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That idea makes me wonder, were it true, just what one is then supposed to do with the doctrine of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and the idea of its being uniquely important. To be consistent with the Calvinist's "absolute predestination" way of thinking, should not, say, the Koran be considered by the Calvinist as having been ultimately authored by YHWH, no less than the Bible was? I mean, if the production of the Koran (as well as of this month's issue of People) was predestined by YHWH, would it not make YHWH the author of those (as well as of all) evil and erroneous (or at least frivolous) texts?

EXACTLY!!!
 

Hoping

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There's only one. It's literally called the nation of Israel.
I can't agree.
When I read Eph 2:12-15 I see a new Israel that includes all believers.
It is written..."That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
The old Israel still doesn't believe and is not part of those in Christ.
Israel is the nation. The Body of Christ is the organism.
They are not the same.
Agreed, if you are referring to the country and not those in Christ.
WRONG.
There is no such thing as "the Israel that is not a nation," because Israel, BY DEFINITION is a nation.
Shall we now call the believing Jews "Gentiles"?
Maybe we should come up with our own name for those in Christ that includes both Jew and Gentile?
I know..."The body of Christ"!
The very fact that he differentiates the two (Israel vs BoC) should clue you in to the fact that they ARE NOT THE SAME!
He may as well have said "believers and unbelievers".
But what about the cross-overs?
The Gentiles in the body of Christ and the Jews in the body of Christ.
Perhaps a third entity entirely?
Things that differ... Hmm... Where have I heard that before...
Oh, right:
Things that Differ: The Fundamentals of Dispensationalism https://g.co/kgs/T8AYm3
The new Israel is certainly different from the old, unbelieving Israel.
One has turned from sin and been baptized into Christ and the other hasn't.
I know which one I have been made one with.
 

JudgeRightly

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I can't agree.

That makes you wrong.

When I read Eph 2:12-15 I see a new Israel that includes all believers.

It's not a "new Israel."

It's just the Remnant! The portion of Israel who was NOT cut off for its unbelief!

The problem with calling them "new Israel" is that God isn't done with the unbelieving portion of Israel! Paul makes that extremely clear in Romans 9-11!

Just READ those three chapters!

Paul starts out chapter 9 (not that there were any chapters to begin with) by stating, almost explicitly, that he's not talking about the Body of Christ, and then explains that aside from the believing portion of Israel (which He calls "Israel," AKA "the Remnant"), there is also those who are "of Israel" (the unbelieving portion) that are not Israel. He then talks about Israel's rejection of her Messiah (Christ) and their present condition, that they, pursuing the law, have not attained righteousness, in contrast to the Gentiles who did not pursue the law having attained it by faith, why? Because Israel did not seek righteousness by faith, but by works of the law.

He then points out that they do have a zeal for God, but that their zeal for Him through the law is what prevents them from attaining righteousness through faith. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Paul then gets into the differences between "the righteousness which is of the law" and "the righteousness which is of faith, pointing out that the law requires a man to live according to a standard, whereas faith is keeping the word of faith near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." This is in direct opposition to what Moses wrote!

Anyways, Paul then explains that Israel rejects the gospel of faith (because of their adherence to the law and to their own good works), and presents the fact that God has been waiting for them to repent, but they, having heard the gospel, and know it, and even having Christ who is God manifest Himself to them, they still disobey Him, and it was for that reason that God cut them (Unbelieving Israel) off.

Does that then mean that Israel has been cast away? "CERTAINLY NOT!" as Paul says. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“ Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

The "Elect" here is still Israel, the Remnant. (see verse 5). Paul didn't just suddenly start talking about the Body of Christ, no, he's still talking about Israel.

Israel's rejection is not final. He says: "have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Paul then writes: I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Paul then finishes by saying this, which you should read carefully:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:25-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:25-36&version=NKJV

It is written..."That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

You need to read the whole passage, not just a portion of it:

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. - Ephesians 2:11-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:11-18&version=NKJV

Paul here is talking about breaking down the (quite superficial, yet also very important, but only under the law) distinction between Jew and Gentile.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV

Note that He said "Abraham's seed" and not "Isaac's seed."

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV

Note that ONLY in the "new man" (an organism, not a nation) is there no difference.

The old Israel still doesn't believe and is not part of those in Christ.

The "old Israel" you're referring to is not "old Israel" nor is it a different nation. It's still Israel. It's the portion of Israel that was cut off for their unbelief, but that will be grafted back in again later.

Agreed, if you are referring to the country and not those in Christ.

I meant what I said.

They are not the same thing just with different names.

Israel is a country, a nation. The Body of Christ is an organism, a new man. They are two distinct entities.

Shall we now call the believing Jews "Gentiles"?

No.

Under the New Covenant, prior to Paul's conversion, believing Jews were still Israel.

Under the dispensation of grace, after Paul's conversion and to this very day, anyone who believes is neither Jew nor Gentile, as I quoted Paul above.

Maybe we should come up with our own name for those in Christ that includes both Jew and Gentile?

No need.

I know..."The body of Christ"!

Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV

He may as well have said "believers and unbelievers".

That would have only brought more confusion, because of the fact that there are two relevant dispensations, in which "believer and "unbeliever" mean different things.

But what about the cross-overs?

There are none.

As Paul said:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called. - 1 Corinthians 7:19-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians7:19-24&version=NKJV

The Gentiles in the body of Christ and the Jews in the body of Christ.

What is it about "no distinction between Jew and Greek" do you not understand?

Again:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV

Perhaps a third entity entirely?

There's only two groups, as far as "the people of God" are concerned: the nation of Israel, and the Body of Christ.

The new Israel is certainly different from the old, unbelieving Israel.

There's only Israel, which contained both believers and unbelievers, but now is a nation cut off from her God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Her dispensation of the New Covenant is NOT currently in effect, and there are NO members of it alive today.

One has turned from sin and been baptized into Christ and the other hasn't.

Once again you conflate Paul's dispensation of grace with the covenant of law.

The New Covenant wasn't about being "baptized into Christ." It was about believing that Christ was the Messiah.

I know which one I have been made one with.

Confusion reigns in you.
 

beloved57

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It's not a "new Israel."

Technically you right, Spiritual Israel isnt a New Israel, she existed before the physical nation in time was formed. She was always within the physical nation while God was pleased to use that Physical nation for the bringing in the Physical appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Spiritual Body Israel. Thats why Paul wrote Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual, which are of Israel[Nnational]:
 

JudgeRightly

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@JudgeRightly

Technically you right,

The best kind of right.

Spiritual Israel isnt a New Israel,

There's no such thing as "Spiritual Israel."

There's only the Remnant, the portion of Israel that trusted in Christ her Messiah, and the unbelieving Israel, which was cut off because of their unbelief.

NEITHER of which have anything to do with the Body of Christ, which is a new creature, an organism.

she existed before the physical nation in time was formed.

Again, no such thing as "Spiritual Israel."

She was always within the physical nation while God was pleased to use that Physical nation for the bringing in the Physical appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Spiritual Body Israel.

Nonsense not found in scripture.

Thats why Paul wrote Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual, which are of Israel[Nnational]:

Both of the "Israel"s there are Israel, just different portions of it.

All it takes to see that is to read what the chapter says plainly.
 

Clete

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That idea makes me wonder, were it true, just what one is then supposed to do with the doctrine of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and the idea of its being uniquely important. To be consistent with the Calvinist's "absolute predestination" way of thinking, should not, say, the Koran be considered by the Calvinist as having been ultimately authored by YHWH, no less than the Bible was? I mean, if the production of the Koran (as well as of this month's issue of People) was predestined by YHWH, would it not make YHWH the author of those (as well as of all) evil and erroneous (or at least frivolous) texts?
Brilliant point!

But why stop with the written word? Every foul cuss word that has ever been uttered, the Calvinist believes was so uttered by divine decree and could not have said differently. The Calvinist's predestination doctrine does not merely include all the mindless movement of atoms, molecules and photons of energy in the universe. They don't believe that God is merely in absolute control of every wave of the sea and every flip of a fish's tail but also every thought, word and deed of any person, whether human or angel.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

Clete
 

Hoping

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That makes you wrong.
Right, because you say so.
It's not a "new Israel."
It's just the Remnant! The portion of Israel who was NOT cut off for its unbelief!
OK, it is the "believing portion of Israel".
The "Remnant" works for me as a substitute for "New Israel".
And both labels are totally distinct from unbelieving Israel.
The problem with calling them "new Israel" is that God isn't done with the unbelieving portion of Israel! Paul makes that extremely clear in Romans 9-11!
Sure,, I see the unconverted portion of the "nation" still has a part in the future.
You need to read the whole passage, not just a portion of it:
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. - Ephesians 2:11-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:11-18&version=NKJV
Paul here is talking about breaking down the (quite superficial, yet also very important, but only under the law) distinction between Jew and Gentile.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV
Superficial, under the Law, distinction.
But the converted Jews are no longer under the Law.
So there is no longer a distinction between converted Jews and converted Gentiles.
The distinctiveness was nailed to the cross of Christ Jesus.
I think Peter realized that during his visit to Antioch. (Gal 2)
Note that He said "Abraham's seed" and not "Isaac's seed."
Do you feel that all the unconverted Jews were not of Isaac?
Though physically of Isaac, spiritually separate?
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV
Note that ONLY in the "new man" (an organism, not a nation) is there no difference.
Of course, making it so important to "label" which part of "Israel" one is writing of in our posts.
So much of your writings seem to be so anti-Jew, edging on racism...to me.
The "old Israel" you're referring to is not "old Israel" nor is it a different nation. It's still Israel. It's the portion of Israel that was cut off for their unbelief, but that will be grafted back in again later.
Unconverted Israel, vis-a-vis reborn Israel.
I meant what I said.
They are not the same thing just with different names.
Israel is a country, a nation. The Body of Christ is an organism, a new man. They are two distinct entities.
Why don't you include the born again Jews in the body of Christ?
Or do you?
No.
Under the New Covenant, prior to Paul's conversion, believing Jews were still Israel.
Under the dispensation of grace, after Paul's conversion and to this very day, anyone who believes is neither Jew nor Gentile, as I quoted Paul above.
Don't you think that the regenerated Jews partook of the same grace Gentile believers do?
I certainly do.
No need.
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. - Colossians 3:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians3:9-11&version=NKJV
Exactly, believing Jew and believing Gentile, both made one new man in Christ.
That would have only brought more confusion, because of the fact that there are two relevant dispensations, in which "believer and "unbeliever" mean different things.
There is a difference between believers and unbelievers, but none between believers and believers.
There are none.
As Paul said:
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it.For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called. - 1 Corinthians 7:19-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians7:19-24&version=NKJV
What is it about "no distinction between Jew and Greek" do you not understand?
I see no distinction, as long as we agree both can be believers.
Again:
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:26-29&version=NKJV
There's only two groups, as far as "the people of God" are concerned: the nation of Israel, and the Body of Christ.
Right, the unbelieving and believing.
Men can be only one or the other.
There's only Israel, which contained both believers and unbelievers, but now is a nation cut off from her God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Her dispensation of the New Covenant is NOT currently in effect, and there are NO members of it alive today.
The believers are not cut off, as they are in Christ Jesus.
Just the unbelieving part of the nation is cut off.
Once again you conflate Paul's dispensation of grace with the covenant of law.
The New Covenant wasn't about being "baptized into Christ." It was about believing that Christ was the Messiah.
If the Messiah told you to get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, would you?
That is not Mosaic Law.
Confusion reigns in you.
The only confusion seems to be your minimizing of the believing Jews...which would include Paul.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Right, because you say so.

No, because the Bible says so.

Superficial, under the Law, distinction.
But the converted Jews are no longer under the Law.

You're still not getting it.

The "converted Jews," who were part of the New Covenant, are long dead. Presently, and since Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus, where he became the first Christian, there are NO members of the New Covenant alive today. Not even you, despite your kicking against the goad and insisting otherwise. Why? Because access to the New Covenant was removed. It is not possible to be a member of it because it is currently unavailable.

ANYONE TODAY who enters into a relationship with God, does so through the gospel of grace, NOT the New Covenant.

So there is no longer a distinction between converted Jews and converted Gentiles.

ONLY in the Body of Christ.

The distinctiveness was nailed to the cross of Christ Jesus.

No. After Christ was crucified, there was still a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Any Gentile who wanted to partake of the New Covenant had to circumcise and become a proselyte Jew.

I think Peter realized that during his visit to Antioch. (Gal 2)

No, by that point, the Twelve had stopped trying to convert Jews into the New Covenant, because they realized that it had been put on hold. Remember, what Paul describes in Galatians 2 happened 14 YEARS after his last time being in Jerusalem.

Do you feel that all the unconverted Jews were not of Isaac? Though physically of Isaac, spiritually separate?

The unbelieving Jews were cut off in Acts 9. Only the Remnant remained.

Those who were cut off were, corporately, no longer Israel. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9:6-9.

Of course, making it so important to "label" which part of "Israel" one is writing of in our posts.
So much of your writings seem to be so anti-Jew, edging on racism...to me.

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion...

Unconverted Israel, vis-a-vis reborn Israel.

Why don't you include the born again

Born again is a term that only has meaning when talking about Israel and the New Covenant. Yes, Christianity has (mis)appropriated it to mean getting saved, but Biblically, it doesn't mean that.

Jews in the body of Christ?
Or do you?

In the Body of Christ, there is NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE.

An ethnic Jew today who becomes a Christian is no longer a Jew, but a member of the body of Christ, even if he continues to keep the law, as Messianic Jews today do.

However, Under the New Covenant, made ONLY with Israel, there are ONLY Jews and Proselytes.

Don't you think that the regenerated Jews partook of the same grace Gentile believers do? I certainly do.

The law was undergirded by grace, otherwise NO ONE in Israel would have been able to follow it.

In that sense, yes, the Jews partook of the same grace we have today in the Body of Christ.

But what your asking assumes that there are Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ where Paul is explicit that there aren't any, so it is inherently a flawed question without an answer.

Again: IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, there is neither Jew nor Greek...

Exactly, believing Jew and believing Gentile, both made one new man in Christ.

No. What is it about "NO LONGER JEW NOR GREEK" that you can't understand?

Under the dispensation of grace, members of the Body of Christ ARE NEITHER!

You keep asserting "Believing Jew and believing Gentile" which means something TOTALLY DIFFERENT, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST!

There is a difference between believers and unbelievers, but none between believers and believers.

There IS a difference between believers under the New Covenant and believers under the Gospel of Grace (AKA members of the Body of Christ).

I see no distinction, as long as we agree both can be believers.

You're STILL missing the point.

Right, the unbelieving and believing.
Men can be only one or the other.

And it matters WHICH dispensation he believes under.

It's not just a matter of "he believes, and that's that."

It's "He believed under the New Covenant" or "He believed under Paul's dispensation of grace."

The believers are not cut off, as they are in Christ Jesus. Just the unbelieving part of the nation is cut off.

You're still mashing the two dispensations together. The "unbelieving part of the nation [of Israel]" that was cut off was BECAUSE THEY REJECTED THE NEW COVENANT. It has nothing to do with being "in Christ Jesus."

If the Messiah told you to get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, would you?

No. Because A) He wouldn't, because He would understand that B) I am saved under the dispensation of the grace of God.

That is not Mosaic Law.

Messiah is a term that is relevant only to the New Covenant God made with Israel. It has no significance to members of the Body of Christ.

The only confusion seems to be your minimizing of the believing Jews...which would include Paul.

Says the one mashing up two completely different dispensations and calling them one.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
For all practical/Spiritual purposes the lost natural man we are in this world without God Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Now a person without God cannot and will not come to or seek God Rom 3:11. A person without God will not decide to choose God with his own freewill, since his will is a slave to sin. In fact, a person without God is dead to God, dead in sin. This is why in order for man to regain a right relationship with God, a fellowship with the True God, he must #1 have been chosen by God, and subsequentlly following, quickened by God, that is made alive by God Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 

JudgeRightly

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For all practical/Spiritual purposes the lost natural man we are in this world without God

And yet, the moment the gospel is preached and a natural man hears it, he is no longer "without God." He may still reject God, but he is no longer "without" Him.

Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This verse doesn't say what you want it to say.

Now a person without God cannot and will not come to or seek God

A person who doesn't know about God cannot seek Him, obviously.

On the other hand, a person who KNOWS about God, can choose to seek Him, or to reject Him.

Rom 3:11.

Doesn't say what you want it to say.

A person without God will not decide to choose God with his own freewill,

It's not that he won't. It's that he doesn't even know God exists, and therefore cannot choose Him.

It doesn't mean he doesn't have a will, it means he doesn't even know about the other option.

since his will is a slave to sin.

Which is a completely different topic.

In fact, a person without God is dead to God, dead in sin.

Which is why he is in need of a Savior!

Which is why God provided a Savior!

This is why in order for man to regain a right relationship with God, a fellowship with the True God, he must #1 have been chosen by God, and subsequentlly following, quickened by God, that is made alive by God

False.

First, he has to know about God, and then he can choose to seek God, because He first sought him, or he can choose to reject God, in spite of God first seeking him.

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

This passage does not say what you want it to say.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
For all practical/Spiritual purposes the lost natural man we are in this world without God Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Now a person without God cannot and will not come to or seek God Rom 3:11. A person without God will not decide to choose God with his own freewill, since his will is a slave to sin. In fact, a person without God is dead to God, dead in sin. This is why in order for man to regain a right relationship with God, a fellowship with the True God, he must #1 have been chosen by God, and subsequentlly following, quickened by God, that is made alive by God Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
I am glad your doctrine is wrong.
If it were true, I would never have repented of sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.
My "choices" changed from "Me-First" to "me-last".
 

beloved57

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Another reason why man naturally doesnt seek nor have the ability to seek the True and Living God, is because naturally through sin our hearts are hardened. Hence the saving drawing process by God is began by giving a new heart that isnt hard. Ezk 11:19-20

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezk 36:26-28


26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

We need a whole new Spiritual constitution to begin to seek God !
 

Clete

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Another reason why man naturally doesnt seek nor have the ability to seek the True and Living God, is because naturally through sin our hearts are hardened. Hence the saving drawing process by God is began by giving a new heart that isnt hard. Ezk 11:19-20

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezk 36:26-28


26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

We need a whole new Spiritual constitution to begin to seek God !
If so, God is unjust!
 
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