Counterfeit Christianity

[Lon]

Maybe because they generally don't come here preaching their counterfeit gospels and false views of God. When they do, their marked and isolated pretty quick. Not so with the Augustinians.

You two aren't really paying attention then. Not only that, in my church, you and I would be sitting in the same pew. It is not a separating issue in the SBC. I'm not even sure why Pate cares when he isn't in a church to kick us out of anyway. You have a lot of angst against us as well, but there is no denial of the gospel of Jesus Christ or His saving power.

Here, listen for a second: If you truly believe God is able to save anybody, and we are mistaken, simply preach scriptures and share the gospel with me. If you believe I am already saved, ignore me and share the gospel with an unbeliever. There really is not a lot to fight about, there really isn't. I think you are 'wrong' not unsaved (though I have not heard your testimony). Knight and the mods have determined that Calvinists on TOL are likely saved (some if not all of us). You 'can' try and correct us and I have no problem with that, but would like it to look a little less like attack, and a little more like you are angry, but at a brother.

When they do, the[y're] marked and isolated pretty quick. Not so with the Augustinians.

No, we are marked quickly too, and have such in our signatures. If that isn't 'quick' then, again, you aren't paying attention.

Most MAD on here have seen my testimony and said I'm a Christian as far as they discern. Knight and the mods have made such clear as well so if you have a hang-up and are not happy, you are a bit in the minority group on TOL (not that people can tell us if we are saved or not, it is between us and Christ alone).

 

[musterion]

It is not a separating issue in the SBC.

That's one reason the SBC is dying and inching daily further toward ecumenical softness and doctrinal apostasy. Current example:

http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/11/17/...oining-with-ihop-cult-to-promote-charismania/

http://www.psalm12outreach.com/2015...-to-unite-the-sbc-with-mike-bickles-ihop.html

http://www.psalm12outreach.com/2015...vout-roman-catholic-marco-rubio-is-saved.html

Try to spin that. Or this:

Know the guy in the suit? Yeah, you know him. Spin it. I dare you.

Consider the cleanliness of your own denominational house before coming to TOL with a mop and broom.

 

[Lon]

That's one reason the SBC is dying and inching daily further toward ecumenical softness and doctrinal apostasy. Current example:

http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/11/17/...oining-with-ihop-cult-to-promote-charismania/

http://www.psalm12outreach.com/2015...-to-unite-the-sbc-with-mike-bickles-ihop.html

http://www.psalm12outreach.com/2015...vout-roman-catholic-marco-rubio-is-saved.html

Try to spin that. Or this:

Spoiler

Know the guy in the suit? Yeah, you know him. Spin it. I dare you.

Consider the cleanliness of your own denominational house before coming to TOL with a mop and broom.

Well, you have the mop and broom, unless you are pointing to something else. The SBC is an affiliation of independents, so, yes, you are correct. I'd simply step back from the SBC, then and say that TOL is inclusive to a point, not to get into a whole other issue, but yes, I have to agree it is too inclusive. They require a signing off on doctrine, however, I cannot go into another's church, despite that disagreement unless they are shown to be against the doctrinal statement. Such is then brought to the SBC board rather than one church going against another.

Perhaps the clearest way to say this is: As long as they are in agreement with the doctrinal statement, the friction remains. I suppose it is like TOL too, as long as we are in line with the rules, we all remain.

The long of this is simply that I do not exclude you in my mind from fellowship. Can I shame you into returning the favor? No, and not my intention. I simply said "I'd 'like' to be treated as a brother. We can probably talk about the problems in the SBC in another thread though. I agree with you there are some big problems. I might ask you to bring your own affiliation up in the conversation, however. We all have to deal with our own affiliations and the related problems. -Lon

 

[musterion]

Your denomination's president will soon hold hands with hypercharismatics, and will do so in the name of Christ.

Rick Warren, card carrying SBC, believes the gospel of Rome saves.

TULIP, which on the whole the SBC long opposed, has been seeing a resurgence among the young Calvinists within its ranks who will eventually replace non-Calvinist pastors (you have no problem with that of course).

Contemporary [worldly] "worship" music is now commonplace.

The SBC has long counted its number of converts not by professions of faith in Christ (that's Lordship Salvation at work) but by the number of people they get in the water tank.

Your ship is sinking. Even the IFBs that split off years ago aren't far behind. If you had sense and discernment, you'd leave.

 

[False Prophet]

Christians do not do the Word of God. They deceive themselves by not being doers of the Word.
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. James 1:22
They are like the man that beholds himself in the mirror, but he walks away to forget what manner of man he is.

 

[Lon]

Your ship is sinking. Even the IFBs that split off years ago aren't far behind. If you had sense and discernment, you'd leave.

Well, thanks (sincerely). My church may certainly disassociate in the future, but the SBC, again, is more concerned with the doctrinal statement for affiliation, and it is a very loose affiliation. Nevertheless, I appreciate your warnings; and your digging with some of the more specific examples I hadn't seen, it helps. -Lon

 

[musterion]

Another symptom.

...and Andy's sure to have a book on sale to help you do just that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhB82oV4rs

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then why did Jesus say... "And few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

How many disciples were there at Pentecost...those are the few...but THEY were responsible for an explosion of soulwinning bringing in the multitudes.

It goes back to Billy Graham...how many are like him, he is the few, but he has brought in multitudes. Finding the narrow path and entering in at the straight gate are CRUCIAL to our progressing from saved [which is great] to being a disciple, a soulwinner.

 

[daqq]

Good points and interpretation! Luke 17:20-21, John 3:3. Mid Actors still can't discern Matt 11:11.

The flesh paradigm mindset has completely blinded the carnal man. That is the veil over his heart, mind, and eyes, when he reads the Torah and Tanach. The point was never to abolish Torah but to understand it so that we may walk in it in the Spirit and uprightness, (using it only lawfully against ourselves and the "members" of our own "households"). And the veil over the heart, mind, and eyes of the carnal minded man will not be lifted until his heart turns back to the Father; which means he needs to be either completely broken or ground to powder, (the old man eventually goes into "the lake"). The same is true of Matthew 11:11 which you reference: IF Messiah was born of a woman, (as they assume because of reading the virgin birth account as strictly physical and literal) then Yochanan the Immerser is greater than Messiah himself because he clearly says so in that passage. The flesh mindset cannot even see this truth spoken in plain surface text. Who is the least in the kingdom of the heavens? If you ask the fleshmonger he will say, "That's me because I'm born again!", while ignoring the fact that the Son of man was made a little lower than the angels and was therefore the least in the kingdom of the heavens, (he that was least is now the greatest).

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes, that is correct. And who GAVE him that glory? HIS GOD.

It doesn't say so. Jesus said He had glory with the Father before the world began...that can only mean He is Himself God.

 

[Zeke]

The flesh paradigm mindset has completely blinded the carnal man. That is the veil over his heart, mind, and eyes, when he reads the Torah and Tanach. The point was never to abolish Torah but to understand it so that we may walk in it in the Spirit and uprightness, (using it only lawfully against ourselves and the "members" of our own "households"). And the veil over the heart, mind, and eyes of the carnal minded man will not be lifted until his heart turns back to the Father; which means he needs to be either completely broken or ground to powder, (the old man eventually goes into "the lake"). The same is true of Matthew 11:11 which you reference: IF Messiah was born of a woman, (as they assume because of reading the virgin birth account as strictly physical and literal) then Yochanan the Immerser is greater than Messiah himself because he clearly says so in that passage. The flesh mindset cannot even see this truth spoken in plain surface text. Who is the least in the kingdom of the heavens? If you ask the fleshmonger he will say, "That's me because I'm born again!", while ignoring the fact that the Son of man was made a little lower than the angels and was therefore the least in the kingdom of the heavens, (he that was least is now the greatest).

The whole of scripture is precept upon precept teaching the two births and the wrestling those two siblings go through before they are reconciled into the one new man. Different Kingdoms being searched for in different settings, one outside built with hands by man, the other built by the Spirit in silence within man.

Galatians points this out in a clear and precise nature, which makes the birth of Isaac a fore shadowing type of Jesus, a birth that takes place in man Galatians 4:28. If one trust Acts then Saul was persecuting Jesus when ever he persecuted a believer in that "way".

 

[Robert Pate]

How many disciples were there at Pentecost...those are the few...but THEY were responsible for an explosion of soulwinning bringing in the multitudes.

It goes back to Billy Graham...how many are like him, he is the few, but he has brought in multitudes. Finding the narrow path and entering in at the straight gate are CRUCIAL to our progressing from saved [which is great] to being a disciple, a soulwinner.

I have talked with some of the Billy Graham converts.

Many of them reject the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ for their salvation. Some believe that they are saved by inviting Jesus into their hearts and then letting Jesus live his life through them, which is Romanism.

 

[KingdomRose]

How many "gods" do you think that there are? The Bible says that there is ONE and that THIS one God is shown to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You are an unbelieving heretic.


No, this is YOU lying about what I said. The Bible shows CLEARLY that Jesus Christ is BOTH a man and God.

You only like to choose the verses where He speaks as a Jew under the law to "prove" your point, but you completely ignore the ones where He claims to be God.


You say that you think that He's a god but not God. That's double-minded nonsense which the rest of you post shows.


I see that just your "great bible translators" (referring to the NWT), that you ALSO like to ADD to the Word of God. NOWHERE in that passage does it say that Jesus was OBSCURED by a cloud.


You are just such a lying unbeliever. You've already show that you have nerve to ADD to the Word of God.

You've are like many: when the Bible does not agree with your ideas; you change the Bible.


When you don't believe that the Bible says, you change it. You are child of the devil.


I have ruminated and found your "explanation" to be that of a lying devil child, just like your "leadership".

All through the Bible other gods are spoken of. There are MANY that men worship---persons or things. St. Paul said it quite well:

"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, NASB)

So is Paul ALSO an unbelieving heretic?

Jesus doesn't claim to be God, and you insult him by telling that spurious piece of mis-information.

Jesus was always the same (Heb.13:8), not like you say---at one time "speaking as under the Law" and then another time speaking as God. What swill.

And it certainly DOES say that Jesus was OBSCURED by a cloud! Did you read the verse? "A cloud received him out of their sight." (Acts 1:9, NASB)

You are full of hate, and you place yourself on slippery ground.

 

[Sherman]

I don't think anyone here thinks that Jesus was JUST a man. He came from heaven, at the Father's behest. He was/is truly divine....he is just not God.

You claim that Jesus spoke "out of two sides of his mouth," as the saying goes. I disagree that he spoke like a human one time and like
God the next. That makes him seem quite unstable.

No, I agree, he does not stop being the Lord from heaven. And when he speaks of "MY GOD," we should show him the respect that he deserves and take seriously what he says.

Look again at Acts chapter 1. Did you miss the point that Jesus was caught up into the air and was OBSCURED BY A CLOUD?

"And after he had said these things, he was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received him out of their sight." (verse 9, NASB)

They couldn't see him as he ascended! He will return in the SAME WAY. Invisibly.

It is YHWH who "stands on the Mt. of Olives." Since YHWH (the Father) does not and has not ever literally come down here to the earth, it is a great deal of poetic license to say that He will. Many scriptures say that God comes down to the earth, but it is understood that He does not do that literally. He makes His presence known, but from His place in heaven. Zechariah 14 has meaning that transcends a surface-type meaning that you give it.

So what is the message of Zechariah 14:4? Well, since Jerusalem ("the city") is symbolic of heavenly Jerusalem, "the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem," must also be taken symbolically. What does that mountain represent? How will it be "split at its middle" and become two mountains? Why does Jehovah refer to them as "my mountains"? In the Bible, mountains can represent kingdoms, or governments. Also, blessings and protection are associated with God's mountain. (Psalm 72:3; Isaiah 25:6,7) Thus, the mountain of the olive trees on which God stands to the east of earthly Jerusalem represents Jehovah's universal sovereignty, His supreme rulership. Also, the mountain to the east of Jerusalem splits in the sense that Jehovah establishes another rulership, a subsidiary one. This secondary rulership is the Messianic Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ. That is why Jehovah speaks of the two mountains that result from the splitting of "the Mount of Olives" as being "my mountains." Both of them are His.

Further: When the symbolic mountain splits, half to the north and half to the south, Jehovah's feet remain set upon both mountains. (Kind of tough for a physical person to do.) "A very great valley" comes into existence beneath Jehovah's feet. This SYMBOLIC valley represents divine protection, by which Jehovah's servants find safety under His universal sovereignty and His Son's Messianic Kingdom. Jehovah will make sure that pure worship will never be snuffed out.

There is more to say, but hopefully folks here will ruminate on what I've already written, and get the sense of it.

I just read this. I had to get my hip waders on to wade through on the nonsense.

I also read your report in the woodshed. If you don't like people calling your cult heresy on this forum, there are plenty of JW boards out there. This is a Christian forum. Can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

 

[KingdomRose]

Maybe because they generally don't come here preaching their counterfeit gospels and false views of God. When they do, their marked and isolated pretty quick. Not so with the Augustinians.

Have you ever really listened to what JWs have to say? Or do you just take it for granted that they are devils, just as you've been TOLD? How can you denigrate them for claiming Jesus as their Lord and Savior and King? They are the only ones who won't vote for anyone ELSE!! You do, I would be willing to bet. We listen to him when he says not to kill, even our enemies. (Matt.5:44) But you....you go along with whatever garbage your church tells you. (BTW, YOUR ship is sinking. It would behoove you to listen to JWs.)

Yes, JWs are isolated, just as Jesus and his disciples were in the first century.

 

[User Name]

Have you ever really listened to what JWs have to say?

Have you ever read this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

 

[KingdomRose]

It doesn't say so. Jesus said He had glory with the Father before the world began...that can only mean He is Himself God.

No, my friend. Pay attention. If you read the verses about Jesus' glory, you can really see just WHERE the glory is coming from. Observe:

"Father, glorify your Son...according as you have given him authority over all flesh." (John 17:1,2)

"Through him [Jesus] [you] are believers in God, who raised him up from the dead and GAVE him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." (I Peter 1:21, NASB)


Where did Jesus' glory come from? If he was God he would not have to be GIVEN anything. But he GOT the glory FROM THE FATHER, who is God.

 

[KingdomRose]

How many disciples were there at Pentecost...those are the few...but THEY were responsible for an explosion of soulwinning bringing in the multitudes.

It goes back to Billy Graham...how many are like him, he is the few, but he has brought in multitudes. Finding the narrow path and entering in at the straight gate are CRUCIAL to our progressing from saved [which is great] to being a disciple, a soulwinner.

No, Billy Graham is not part of the "few." The few are ones that other people call heretics and ignore. Graham and other Protestant, Mormon and Catholic organizations are part of those on the broad road. (Matthew 7:13,14) Graham and others like him are all affiliated with a large crowd of like believers, on a very spacious road.

 

[Right Divider]

Have you ever really listened to what JWs have to say? Or do you just take it for granted that they are devils, just as you've been TOLD? How can you denigrate them for claiming Jesus as their Lord and Savior and King? They are the only ones who won't vote for anyone ELSE!! You do, I would be willing to bet. We listen to him when he says not to kill, even our enemies. (Matt.5:44) But you....you go along with whatever garbage your church tells you. (BTW, YOUR ship is sinking. It would behoove you to listen to JWs.)

Yes, JWs are isolated, just as Jesus and his disciples were in the first century.

Fallacy, you're comparing apples and tuna fish.

 

[KingdomRose]

Have you ever read this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

I know about everything that is mentioned there. You will notice that some if not many criticisms have been countered by courts and scholars. There are a lot of liberties taken with criticism of JWs, much stretching of a small amount of truth---until it is a big lie.

If you want to see what we really stand for, go to www.jw.org