ECT Born Again

[Jerry Shugart]

1.Bible corrector/mystic/agnostic-pay attention.

And you don't believe any bible, correcting them all

According to you the following translation from the King James Bible needs to be corrected:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

You say that the words "born again" should be translated "born from above," you Bible corrector you!

FUN!

 

[john w]

According to you the following translation from the King James Bible needs to be corrected:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

You say that the words "born again" should be translated "born from above," you Bible corrector you!

FUN!

No-that would be you-I parody you, the "the Greek" fraud, bible corrector/mystic/agnostic.

According to your theory, you correct the bible, submit it to your correction; the bible believer, in contrasts, submits to the bible's correction.

Contrasts.

That is why I seldom engage you, or any other bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, such as yourself, and those of your ilk, on TOL; the bible instructs me not to, as you can "prove" anything. I only debate bible believers.

Can you dig it, Jer? Good.

 

[glorydaz]

What does the Lord Jesus require for those in the Body of Christ?:

"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (1 Thess.2:4-7).​

That is what the Lord Jesus requires of those in the Body of Christ because those are His commandments. But at the same time keeping those commandments are not a "requirement" for salvation because we read the following:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

You do know what the word "whoever" means, don't you glorydaz?

Those are words of comfort and exhortation in regards to our ongoing sanctification. Didn't you read the text?


If you want to know what we must believe, you'll need to read 1 Cor. 15:1-4

"Whoever" means whoever was being addressed in any particular text.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is why I seldom engage you, or any other bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, such as yourself, and those of your ilk, on TOL; the bible instructs me not to, as you can "prove" anything. I only debate bible believers.

According to you this verse from the King James Bible needs to be corrected:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

You say that the words "born again" should be translated "born from above," you Bible corrector you!

FUN!

 

[musterion]

Where in that verse do we read that keeping the commandments was a requirement for salvation? If a Jew is going to be saved by keeping the commandments then he must keep them perfectly, because as James said, if a Jew broke one commandment he was "guilty of all" (Jas.2:10). Can you tell me how being guilty of all can contribute to anyone's salvation?

Oily, Jerry, really oily. Borderline greasy.

Who said "the commandments" as in the Ten Commandments? Christ said HIS commandments, which included water baptism, Mark 16:16, which does go back to the predicted nation of priests announced when they had Moses.

Oh, wait. Do you have one of those translations that excised Mark 16:16 or reduced it to a footnote? Is that what the problem is here?

 

[john w]

According to you this verse from the King James Bible needs to be corrected:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

You say that the words "born again" should be translated "born from above," you Bible corrector you!

FUN!

Slower, Jer-No-that would be you-I parody you, the "the Greek" fraud, bible corrector/mystic/agnostic.

According to your theory, you correct the bible, submit it to your correction; the bible believer, in contrasts, submits to the bible's correction.

Contrasts.

That is why I seldom engage you, or any other bible corrector/mystic/agnostic, such as yourself, and those of your ilk, on TOL; the bible instructs me not to, as you can "prove" anything. I only debate bible believers.

Can you dig it, Jer? Good.

 

[john w]

Oily, Jerry, really oily. Borderline greasy.

Who said "the commandments" as in the Ten Commandments? Christ said HIS commandments, which included water baptism, Mark 16:16, which does go back to the predicted nation of priests announced when they had Moses.

Oh, wait. Do you have one of those translations that excised Mark 16:16 or reduced it to a footnote? Is that what the problem is here?

Footnote/*(asterisk):

We all know that Jerry is always right. That is his MO on TOL. He is not hear to learn, but to soapbox his views, which he can "prove" from his stack of lexicons, commentaries, unicals, alephs, tau's, Strong's, "the Greek," the back of his "Captain Crunch" cereal box...................

The LORD God instructs me not to spend too much time with those of his type, those who are clowns, that have unteachable"spirits," like Jer., with their "the Greek" jazz, their Dr./Professor Nicodemus/Demas says blah blah blah..... that are gonna fixta learn us Acts 4:13 KJV country bumpkins, us Lamont "dummies," a few things....

I have neither the time, nor do I have the inclination, in the remaining time I have on this grave yard, called "earth," to spend on these Acts 8:9 KJV "some great one"'s, in their play ground, named, "Yea, hath God said,..?"(Genesis 3:1 KJV).

Can you dig it, Simon? I mean, Jer.?

Good.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those are words of comfort and exhortation in regards to our ongoing sanctification. Didn't you read the text?

I read the text but the words "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" is not about anything "ongoing" because the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "have" are in the "present" tense.

The moment when any person believes they possess eternal life, whether it was the Jews who lived under the law or the Gentile because both are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You do know that if it is of works then it cannot be said to be of grace, don't you glorydaz?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Who said "the commandments" as in the Ten Commandments? Christ said HIS commandments, which included water baptism, Mark 16:16, which does go back to the predicted nation of priests announced when they had Moses.

I've already addressed Mark 16:16. But I will do it again in the hope that you will actually give us your interpretation of the meaning of the words at John 3:16.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. The words which follow Mark 16:16 demonstrate that the Lord is "describing" those who will be saved:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​

John D. Grassmick writes, "Though the New Testament writers generally assume that under normal circumstances each believer will be baptized, 16:16 does not mean that baptism is a necessary requirement for personal salvation. The second half of the verse indicates by contrast that one who does not believe the gospel will be condemned by God (implied) in the day of final judgment (cf. 9:43-48). The basis for condemnation is unbelief, not the lack of any ritual observance...Thus the only requirement for personally appropriating God's salvation is faith in Him" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 196).

If both "faith" and being "baptized with water" are requirements for salvation then the Lord Jesus would have said:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned and he that is baptized not shall be damned.".​

But that is not what He said.

Now that I have answered your verse twice the least you can do is give us your interpretation of the following verse:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

If you fail to give your interpretation for the meaning of these words I will assume you just can't understand them.

 

[musterion]

I've already addressed Mark 16:16. But I will do it again in the hope that you will actually give us your interpretation of the meaning of the words at John 3:16.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. The words which follow Mark 16:16 demonstrate that the Lord is "describing" those who will be saved:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​

John D. Grassmick writes, "Though the New Testament writers generally assume that under normal circumstances each believer will be baptized, 16:16 does not mean that baptism is a necessary requirement for personal salvation. The second half of the verse indicates by contrast that one who does not believe the gospel will be condemned by God (implied) in the day of final judgment (cf. 9:43-48). The basis for condemnation is unbelief, not the lack of any ritual observance...Thus the only requirement for personally appropriating God's salvation is faith in Him" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 196).

If both "faith" and being "baptized with water" are requirements for salvation then the Lord Jesus would have said:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned and he that is baptized not shall be damned.".​

But that is not what He said.

Now that I have answered your verse twice the least you can do is give us your interpretation of the following verse:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
​

If you fail to give your interpretation for the meaning of these words I will assume you just can't understand them.

Were repentant Messianic Israelites required to be water baptized to be considered righteous and in line with God's purpose for Israel?

Yes.

Was this at the same time as John 3 records?

Yes, right up through Acts 2 and beyond.

Did Christ explicitly say water baptism was required?

Yes.

Does that mean they were "saved" by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?

No...

a. "Saved" did not have the meaning for them that it does for we under the dispensation of grace.

b. One cannot have covenant works required of him for righteousness and be said to be saved by faith alone as we are.

c. The only way one can say there's not much difference is to not be consistently Pauline in his doctrine.

Jerry, admit the truth--you're an Acts 2 dispensationalist.

 

[john w]

...the Greek word... and the Greek word....

Quick...Light a match, and recite "the Greek" alphabet, as I was required to do, during my frat pledgeship.

Fraud.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does that mean they were "saved" by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?

Those under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you not even understand that if works are required for salvation then it cannot be said that it is by grace. Besides that, the following verse demonstrates that those who lived under the law were saved by faith alone:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Quick...Light a match, and recite "the Greek" alphabet, as I was required to do, during my frat pledgeship.

Fraud.

You are totally confused because you deny that the word "rebirth" means "born again."

FUN!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Whoever" means whoever was being addressed in any particular text.

Who is being addressed in the following verse?:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[musterion]

Do you not even understand that if works are required for salvation then it cannot be said that it is by grace.

I addressed this in my last post. Feel free to disagree with it but don't act like I didn't. Or maybe JohnW is correct and you just don't read what other people write.

 

[john w]

You are totally confused because you deny that the word "rebirth" means "born again."

FUN!

Quick...Light a match, and recite "the Greek" alphabet, as I was required to do, during my frat pledgeship.

Here is Jer's "the Greek:" Tappa Kegga Budda fraternity

Fraud.

 

[john w]

You are totally confused because you deny that the word "rebirth" means "born again."

FUN!

John 3:3 KJV....Strong's numbers indicating "the Greek" words:

Jesus <2424> answered <611> (5662) and <2532> said <2036> (5627) unto him <846>, Verily <281>, verily <281>, I say <3004> (5719) unto thee <4671>, Except <3362> a man <5100> be born <1080> (5686) again <509>, he cannot <1410> (5736) <3756> see <1492> (5629) the kingdom <932> of God <2316>.

"The Greek" reads:


Jesus answered and bid them Amen, Amen, I tell thee, If not anything bringforth from the first he cannot perceive the kingdom of the godly.


Nuttin' to this Strong's/"The Greek" game,Jer.


Why do you deny, ignore what "the Greek" says and means?

 

[john w]

I addressed this in my last post. Feel free to disagree with it but don't act like I didn't. Or maybe JohnW is correct and you just don't read what other people write.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?131663-The-Gift-of-Eternal-Life/page2

Post #17

Thank you for proving you refuse to listen. You'll repeat yourself over and over again WITHOUT addressing any points that have been made to you. You ignore every single IF that we see in scripture. Why do you do that, Jerry? "If you confess your sins, they will be forgiven.."

=Jer's MO on TOL.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I addressed this in my last post. Feel free to disagree with it but don't act like I didn't. Or maybe JohnW is correct and you just don't read what other people write.

Is this your answer that addressed the fact that Paul wrote that those under the law were saved by grace through faith?:

"Saved" did not have the meaning for them that it does for we under the dispensation of grace.

Then what does the word "salvation" mean in the following verse written by Peter?:

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:8-9).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

=Jer's MO on TOL.

john w's MO on TOL:

Talk about anything and everything besides what the Scriptures actually say.