ECT Born Again

[Jerry Shugart]

So Paul waits for YEARS to put this vitally important doctrine in one of his last epistles?

He knew something that you don't know and that is the fact that those in the Body of Christ will return to the earth with the Lord Jesus when He sets up His earthly kingdom after the rapture and only those who are born again can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5):

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).​

Besides that Paul told the believer in Corinth that they were born through the gospel which he preached to them:

"For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor.4:15).​

That matches what Peter said about being "born again":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

The Jews who lived under the law received the new birth and were therefore and saved by faith alone, just like the members of the Body of Christ:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just like those in the Body of Christ:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you believe that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

 

[steko]

You and your MADists always treating the Bible like a Cobb salad...croutons over here, there's the bacon, blue cheese over there, cherry tomatoes at 11:00, everything all nice and tidy, separate and distinct, divided up.

Problem is, everyone knows the things of God are not all nice and tidy. Messy, even. God loves a good mess, brother John! That's in the good book somewhere!

Everyone knows the Bible is not a salad but really more of a stew or a gumbo. It's God's goulash, brother John! where it all blends together since, as you say, it's ultimately all the same anyway.

Tell the truth, brother John. Would you rather eat the sweet words of God with a spoon or with a fork? Well how do you eat honey? WITH A SPOON, not with a salad fork! That'd be just ridiculous.

QED Quod Erat Demosaladum

:rotfl:

 

[Right Divider]

He knew something that you don't know and that is the fact that those in the Body of Christ will return to the earth with the Lord Jesus when He sets up His earthly kingdom after the rapture and only those who are born again can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5):

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).​

Besides that Paul told the believer in Corinth that they were born through the gospel which he preached to them:

"For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor.4:15).​

That matches what Peter said about being "born again":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

The Jews who lived under the law received the new birth and were therefore and saved by faith alone, just like the members of the Body of Christ:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just like those in the Body of Christ:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you believe that "works" and "grace" are compatible?

Instead of DODGING my question with an attempted REDIRECTION to some of your pet verses.

Please be honest and answer it.

• YOU are the one that cannot show Paul teaching that the body of Christ must be "born again" (since Paul never uses that term).
• YOU couldn't find it anywhere, so you went to TITUS which is one of Paul's LAST epistles.
• YOU equated "rebirth" in TITUS with being "born again".
• YOU think that this vital doctrine is so important that Paul waits until one of his LAST epistles to express it.

How is that possible?

 

[john w]

The word "rebirth" means "born again."

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior" (Titus 3:4-6).​

"born again" is a specific term, its origins dealing with the nation Israel, in the OT. Paul never employs that term, as pertaining to the boc. Why would you? Why should you? Why do you? Unpack it for us all. Why? An addiction? A life long obsession? You're bored?

 

[john w]

You and your MADists always treating the Bible like a Cobb salad...croutons over here, there's the bacon, blue cheese over there, cherry tomatoes at 11:00, everything all nice and tidy, separate and distinct, divided up.

Problem is, everyone knows the things of God are not all nice and tidy. Messy, even. God loves a good mess, brother John! That's in the good book somewhere!

Everyone knows the Bible is not a salad but really more of a stew or a gumbo. It's God's goulash, brother John! where it all blends together since, as you say, it's ultimately all the same anyway.

Tell the truth, brother John. Would you rather eat the sweet words of God with a spoon or with a fork? Well how do you eat honey? WITH A SPOON, not with a salad fork! That'd be just ridiculous.

QED Quod Erat Demosaladum

But Gaaaaaawd does not change, brother musty!!!!!!!This explains why your seed planting, is resulting in lack of growth,bro, falling on hard ground! Kuh-laim your miracle today!!! Guh-low-ree to Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawd!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"born again" is a specific term, its origins dealing with the nation Israel, in the OT.

The regeneration spoken of in the OT refers to the "nation" of Israel, not individual Jews.

On the other hand, Paul speaks of a "rebirth" which belongs to those in the Body of Christ and results in salvation:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin[/I] means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament, 475).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Ibid., 112).

So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth or being "born again."

It is obvious that Paul is not referring to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth.

You cannot enter the kingdom of God UNLESS you are born again (Jn.3:3,5).

 

[john w]

The regeneration spoken of in the OT refers to the "nation" of Israel, not individual Jews.

On the other hand, Paul speaks of a "rebirth" which belongs to those in the Body of Christ and results in salvation:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin[/I] means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament, 475).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Ibid., 112).

So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth or being "born again."

It is obvious that Paul is not referring to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth.

You cannot enter the kingdom of God UNLESS you are born again (Jn.3:3,5).

Non responsive. "born again" is a specific term, its origins dealing with the nation Israel, in the OT. Paul never employs that term, as pertaining to the boc. Why would you? Why should you? Why do you? Unpack it for us all. Why? An addiction? A life long obsession? You're bored?

And the Lord Jesus Christ was not addressing you, in the verses you quoted.

"Marvel not that I say unto THEE [i.e., Nicodemus-my note], YE [i.e., the nation Israel-my note] must be born again.”

Exodus 4 KJV
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Deuteronomy 32 KJV
9 For the Lord’s portion is his people;Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
10 He found him in a desert land,and in the waste howling wilderness;he led him about, he instructed him,he kept him as the apple of his eye..............18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful,and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

 

[Right Divider]

The regeneration spoken of in the OT refers to the "nation" of Israel, not individual Jews.

On the other hand, Paul speaks of a "rebirth" which belongs to those in the Body of Christ and results in salvation:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin[/I] means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament, 475).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Ibid., 112).

So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth or being "born again."

It is obvious that Paul is not referring to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth.

You cannot enter the kingdom of God UNLESS you are born again (Jn.3:3,5).

And this "born again/rebirth" doctrine is so important that Paul doesn't even mention it until near the end of his ministry?

Please explain how that is possible Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please be honest and answer it.

I will answer what you said here:

YOU are the one that cannot show Paul teaching that the body of Christ must be "born again" (since Paul never uses that term).

He uses the word "rebirth" and that means exactly what the term "born again" means:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

YOU couldn't find it anywhere, so you went to TITUS which is one of Paul's LAST epistles.

So are you arguing that because we find it in one of Paul's last epistles that we can't believe what he said there?

YOU equated "rebirth" in TITUS with being "born again".

Be honest and tell us why someone who experiences a "rebirth" has not been "born of God."

YOU think that this vital doctrine is so important that Paul waits until one of his LAST epistles to express it.

Paul spoke about those in the Body who were begotten by the gospel (1 Cor.4:15) but you evidently do not even understand what the word "begotten" means.

Please be honest and answer the following evidence that proves that those in the Body must be "born again" in order to enter the kingdom. The Apostle Paul said that once the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air that they will "forever" be with Him:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).​

Since those in the Body will be with the Lord Jesus "forever" after they are caught up then that means that they will be with Him when He returns to usher in the earthly kingdom. And only those who are "born of God" can see that kingdom, much less enter it:

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again...Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit" (Jn.3:3,5).​

Please be honest and answer these facts.

 

[john w]

Please be honest and answer the following evidence that proves that those in the Body must be "born again" in order to enter the kingdom.

Enter the kingdom of God, on earth, in spiritually regenerate, resurrected bodies, as part of the benefits of the provisions of the NC, promised to the believing remnant of the nation Israel, according to prophecy-has NADA to do, with the boc.

And the master, told Nick, in his John 3 expounding, of this "born again" requirement, as a future expectation, not "immediate," as regeneration/rebirth applies immediatelty to respective members of the boc:

John 7 KJV

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Bible blenders: It all says the same thing!!!!! Wait, tarry for the Holy Ghost!!!!

 

[Right Divider]

I will answer what you said here:

He uses the word "rebirth" and that means exactly what the term "born again" means:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

So are you arguing that because we find it in one of Paul's last epistles that we can't believe what he said there?

I believe all of the Bible Jerry. I just don't try to force any meaning on any of it the way that you do.

I can see that you have no answer as to why something that you consider vital doctrine doesn't appear in Paul's writings until his ministry is almost finished.

The ONLY writer of scripture to use the term "the body of Christ" with reference to the church of the present dispensation waits YEARS and YEARS to write about this VITAL doctrine.

You just keep trying to redirect instead of addressing this specific thing.

The point is that IF what you say is true, there is NO WAY that Paul could neglect to spell is out until so late in his ministry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Non responsive. "born again" is a specific term, its origins dealing with the nation Israel, in the OT. Paul never employs that term, as pertaining to the boc.

So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as "born again"?

"Marvel not that I say unto THEE [i.e., Nicodemus-my note], YE [i.e., the nation Israel-my note] must be born again.”

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except A MAN [i.e., singular-my note] be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

 

[Right Divider]

So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as "born again"?

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except A MAN [i.e., singular-my note] be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

So you really don't understand the context of the book of John and particularly chapter 3?

Joh 3:1-2 KJV There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: (2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

​

Joh 3:10 KJV Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?​

All that the Rabbi (Jesus) was teaching were things that THEY (Israel's leadership) should have known based on THEIR prophets.

That's NOT stuff specifically related to the NEW CREATION and revelation to Paul about the body of Christ.

[Go ahead, I know that you'll MASH some scripture together to "prove" otherwise].

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe all of the Bible Jerry.

I asked you please to be honest and answer my point but you refused. If you believe all the Bible then you should be able to explain it. But you had no answer for the fact that after those in the Body of Christ are caught up they will forever be with the Lord Jesus. So when He returns to the earth to set up the earthly kingdom we will be with Him but we can't enter the kingdom unless we are born again.

And do you honestly believe that the word "rebirth" does not carry with it the meaning of "born again"? And do honestly think that since Paul did not use the word "rebirth" until one of his last epistles then that somehow means that those in the Body do not experience a rebirth or are born again?

Can you give me an honest answer to these things?

 

[john w]

I believe all of the Bible Jerry. I just don't try to force any meaning on any of it the way that you do.

I can see that you have no answer as to why something that you consider vital doctrine doesn't appear in Paul's writings until his ministry is almost finished.

The ONLY writer of scripture to use the term "the body of Christ" with reference to the church of the present dispensation waits YEARS and YEARS to write about this VITAL doctrine.

You just keep trying to redirect instead of addressing this specific thing.

The point is that IF what you say is true, there is NO WAY that Paul could neglect to spell is out until so late in his ministry.

1 Corinthians 15 KJV

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Jer's logic:"born out of due time" means "miscarriage, abortion, stillborn child." Thus, since Paul is our pattern, Paul, and members ofthe boc are miscarriages, abortions, stillborn children.


QED.


Shut this thread down, Jer, as you are causing strife, division, within the boc, and have given no reasonable explanation, as to why you insist respective members of the boc should be referred to as having been "born again," when Paul never does. What is it with you? An obsession? An adiction? Wanting to futher morph into an Acts 1/2 proponent, from Acts 2, eliminating the distinction the LORD God, in terms of calling, has made,between the believing remnant of the nation of Israel, and the church, which is His body, in this dispensation, on purpose, and turning Paul into just a "two bit flunkie," errand boy?

 

[john w]

So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as "born again"?

No, knock it off-I explained my argument, in detail, but, as is your MO, on TOL, you engage in sophistry, deceptive debating ploys.

Jer's argument: The word "church" means "called out ones," "assembly." Paul employs this word "church."


So, this is the church, the body of Christ, as it all says the same thing:

Acts 7 KJV

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


And do you honestly believe that the word "church" does not carry with it the meaning of "called out ones/assembly"?:And do you honestly believe "born out of due time" does not mean "miscarriage, abortion, stillborn child?"

So there. Jer's kindergarten is in session.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All that the Rabbi (Jesus) was teaching were things that THEY (Israel's leadership) should have known based on THEIR prophets.

Yes, the Lord Jesus used the regeneration of the nation of Israel (Ez.37:1-10-earthly things) to illustrate the regeneration of the individual (Jn.3:3-heavenly things). He used this "type" relating to Israel to illustrate the "antitype." Paul did the same thing for those in the Body of Christ:

"Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed" (1 Cor.5:7).​

 

[Right Divider]

I asked you please to be honest and answer my point but you refused.

Of course I won't answer your question. I'm not falling for your tricks and attempted REDIRECTION.

Until you can give me (and all of us) a reasonable answer as to why Paul did NOT address this VITAL topic until one of his LAST epistles, I will not let you jump around like a jack rabbit.

How could something that YOU say is of VITAL importance for the body of Christ (which ONLY Paul talks about) not show up for YEARS and YEARS in his epistles?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, knock it off-I explained my argument, in detail, but, as is your MO, on TOL, you engage in sophistry, deceptive debating ploys.

You did not answer my point in regard to the words "a man." You repeatedly engage in evasive ploys because anyone can see that you did not answer my question, "So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as 'born again'"?

Jer's argument: The word "church" means "called out ones," "assembly."

That's just another cheap trick, change the subject as fast as you can in the hope that no one will notice that you did not answer my points.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, the Lord Jesus used the regeneration of the nation of Israel (Ez.37:1-10-earthly things) to illustrate the regeneration of the individual (Jn.3:3-heavenly things). He used this "type" relating to Israel to illustrate the "antitype." Paul did the same thing for those in the Body of Christ:

"Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed" (1 Cor.5:7).​

You have such difficulty with CONTEXT Jerry.

Many in Paul's audience at Corinth were his kinsmen in the flesh.

1Co 5:1 KJV It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.​

Note the contrast between YOU and THE GENTILES.