ECT Born Again

[Jerry Shugart]

Shut this thread down, Jer, as you are causing strife, division, within the boc, and have given no reasonable explanation, as to why you insist respective members of the boc should be referred to as having been "born again," when Paul never does. What is it with you?

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."

An obsession? An adiction? Wanting to futher morph into an Acts 1/2 proponent, from Acts 2, eliminating the distinction the LORD God, in terms of calling, has made,between the believing remnant of the nation of Israel, and the church, which is His body, in this dispensation, on purpose, and turning Paul into just a "two bit flunkie," errand boy?

You mentioned the believing remnant out of Israel and here Paul speaks about two different groups of people who have been made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I say that the two groups are the believing Gentiles and the believing remnant out of Israel. Who do you say make up the two groups?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You have such difficulty with CONTEXT Jerry.

Many in Paul's audience at Corinth were his kinsmen in the flesh.

1Co 5:1 KJV It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.​

Note the contrast between YOU and THE GENTILES.

So it has no meaning for you? Or are you a Jew and the Gentiles cannot understand the types?

 

[Right Divider]

So it has no meaning for you? Or are you a Jew and the Gentiles cannot understand the types?

I understand it.

 

[john w]

You did not answer my point in regard to the words "a man." You repeatedly engage in evasive ploys because anyone can see that you did not answer my question, "So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as 'born again'"?

You deceptive liar. I explained my argument. You ignored it, my questions, RD's question-that is your MO on TOL.

So your argument is that "church" does not mean "called out ones, assembly," and that "out of due time" does not mean "miscarriage,abortion, stillborn child."

So, your argument is that you can replace biblical words, since they "mean the same thing?"

That's just another cheap trick, change the subject as fast as you can in the hope that no one will notice that you did not answer my points.

="no one will notice that you did not answer my points"=what you spam to everyone, after you avoid answering challenges to your argument.

Listen up, bible blender, "it all say the same thing" proponent: "entering the Kingdom” is available only when the Lord Jesus returns and sets up his Millennial Kingdom here on earth-it pertains the the nation Israel, not you, thief.

 

[john w]

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."



You mentioned the believing remnant out of Israel and here Paul speaks about two different groups of people who have been made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I say that the two groups are the believing Gentiles and the believing remnant out of Israel. Who do you say make up the two groups?

Non responsive. Why do you insist on using the term, when Paul does not? What gives you the authority to change biblical words? Why do you do it? An obsession? An adiction?

 

[john w]

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."



You mentioned the believing remnant out of Israel and here Paul speaks about two different groups of people who have been made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I say that the two groups are the believing Gentiles and the believing remnant out of Israel. Who do you say make up the two groups?

Why do you deny the meaning of "church," "out of due time?" Why do you deny that members of the boc are an abortion?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Shut this thread down, Jer, as you are causing strife, division, within the boc, and have given no reasonable explanation, as to why you insist respective members of the boc should be referred to as having been "born again," when Paul never does. What is it with you?

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."

An obsession? An adiction? Wanting to futher morph into an Acts 1/2 proponent, from Acts 2, eliminating the distinction the LORD God, in terms of calling, has made,between the believing remnant of the nation of Israel, and the church, which is His body, in this dispensation, on purpose, and turning Paul into just a "two bit flunkie," errand boy?

You mentioned the believing remnant out of Israel and here Paul speaks about two different groups of people who have been made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I say that the two groups are the believing Gentiles and the believing remnant out of Israel. Who do you say make up the two groups?

 

[Right Divider]

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."

How many YEARS was it before Paul wrote Titus, Jerry?

Why would Paul wait for YEARS.... MANY YEARS.... to introduce this VITAL doctrine?

Since you cannot explain this, you have a serious problem with your story.

You can attempt to avoid this all that you want. But I will hammer you on it until you see that you have no good answer.

 

[musterion]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Which translation is that?

 

[john w]

I just happen to believe that the word "rebirth" that Paul used in reference to the salvation of those in the Body of Christ means the same thing as "born again."



You mentioned the believing remnant out of Israel and here Paul speaks about two different groups of people who have been made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I say that the two groups are the believing Gentiles and the believing remnant out of Israel. Who do you say make up the two groups?

Evasion, misdirection. Why do you deny the meaning of "church," "out of due time?" Why do you deny that members of the boc are an abortion? Why do you refer to members of the boc, as "born again," when Paul never does? An addiction? A life long obsession? To set us all straight, Jer, with your new insight, as you morph into "Replacement 'Theology'," as you assert that the nation of Israel, has been replaced by the boc, as you blur the differences, the LORD God has made, in 6th grade English? Why do you, should you? What is your motivation? Why do you cause others, to embrace, "It all means the same thing," and thus cause others to reject the dispensational approach, to understanding, interpreting, the "volume of the book?" Why?

"We see," that you have no answer.

 

[john w]

So your argument is that the word "rebirth" doesn't mean the same thing as "born again"?

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except A MAN [i.e., singular-my note] be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).​

Want to play "the Greek" con game, deception, eh, Jer?

https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/you-must-be-born-again


"The second point addresses the fact the Greek words translated “born again” in John 3 are not the same Greek words translated “born again” in the Epistles. It makes sense that if what Jesus is speaking of in John 3 is different from the New Birth, the vocabulary that describes it should be different, and it is. It is unfortunate that many translators used the phrase “born again” in both John and Peter, because the Greek words used in these books are different. The mistranslation causes truth that is being revealed in the gospel of John to be lost. In the book of Peter, both “New Birth” (1 Pet. 1:3) and “born again” (1 Pet. 1:23) are translated from the Greek word anagennao, made up of the prefix ana, which means “again” or “over again,” and gennao, which means “to beget” or “give birth.” Translating anagennao as “born again” in Peter is correct. Christians can correctly speak of themselves as having been “born again.”

In contrast with anagennao, the phrase “born again” in John 3 is translated from two Greek words: gennao and anothen. Gennao means “to beget” and anothen means “from above,” “from the top,” or “from the beginning.” Anothen is first used in the New Testament in Matthew 27:51 when the curtain of the Temple was torn from the “top” (anothen) to the bottom. Another use is in John 3:31, when John the Baptist was testifying of Christ and said, “The one who comes from above [anothen] is above all.” Here, the translators correctly translate anothen as “from above.” James 1:17 reads, “Every good and perfect gift is from above [anothen].” These scriptures show that the word anothen means “from above.” There are some well-respected translations that have “born from above” instead of “born again” in John 3:3,7, including: The Jerusalem Bible, New Jerusalem Bible, The Message, New Revised Standard Version, New American Bible, The International Standard Version, Young’s Literal Translation, The Bible by James Moffatt, The Better Version of the New Testament by Chester Estes, The New Testament in the Language of the People by Charles Williams, and The Emphasized Bible by Joseph Rotherham. In spite of these translations using “born from above” instead of “born again,” the phrase is almost universally quoted in Christendom as “born again,” which works against its being properly understood.

In John 3, Jesus was speaking about being born “from above,” a truth revealed in the Old Testament, to correct Nicodemus’ erroneous doctrine. Nicodemus was an educated and intelligent man, but his Pharisaic doctrine clouded the clear teaching of the Old Testament, namely, that in order for anyone to enter the future Kingdom, his dead body would have to be “born from above.” The prophets of old said that the dead bodies of believers would be given life when spirit from above, that is, the animating life force of God, entered them. The spirit would give them life and so they would be “born” from God above and “born” from the grave. Having been born “from above,” they could enter the Kingdom. Consider the following verse:


Isaiah 26:19
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. [4]

Isaiah not only said that people would be “born” out of the grave, he also wrote that the spirit would come “from above” or “from on high.”


Isaiah 32:15-17
(15) Till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest.
(16) Justice will dwell in the desert and righteousness live in the fertile field.
(17) The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness will be quietness and confidence forever.

That these verses in Isaiah refer to the Day of Judgment and the Millennial Kingdom is clear from their contexts. Ezekiel was another prophet who wrote about the spirit entering the dead bodies of believers and giving them life so that they can enter the Kingdom.


Ezekiel 37:12-14
(12) Therefore prophesy and say to them: “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
(13) Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
(14) I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.”

In order to give life to the dead bodies of the believers, God will have to put His spirit in each one. [5] In Ezekiel’s prophecy to the dead bones of Israel, the Lord said he would make ruach, spirit, enter them and they would come to life (Ezek. 37:5,6,8,9,10,14). God, who is “the Spirit,” will place His “spirit” in the dead bodies, which will give them life. This is why Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, “The Spirit [God] gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6). The dead are literally “born from above” when God above raises up the Old Testament and Tribulation believers and animates them with His spirit. They will come to life and enter the Millennial Kingdom, which Christ will establish on earth.

The third point addresses the fact when Jesus spoke of “entering the Kingdom,” he was not speaking of Christian salvation. Many Bible teachers quote Jesus’ words, i.e., that you must be born again to enter the Kingdom, as if “entering the Kingdom” were the same as “Christian salvation.” It is not. When a Christian accepts Christ and is saved, he experiences the New Birth, but he does not enter the Kingdom, which is a place on earth and is not yet established. Christian salvation occurs in this life on this earth. In contrast, “entering the Kingdom” is available only when Jesus returns and sets up his Millennial Kingdom here on earth.

Unlike Christians who are “born again” but have not entered the Kingdom, Old Testament believers will enter the Kingdom without ever having experienced the Christian New Birth. It is important to realize that if Christ had said, “You must be born again [referring to the Christian New Birth] to enter the Kingdom,” then Old Testament believers such as Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Miriam, David, Esther, etc., would not be allowed into the Kingdom because they never were “born again” in the Christian sense of the word. Surely Christ did not say anything that excluded Old Testament believers from the Kingdom! “Entering the Kingdom” and the New Birth must not be confused. Christians must understand the vocabulary God uses in Scripture to communicate truth, and that is why having an accurate translation from the Hebrew and Greek texts is so vitally important.

The fourth point to understand is that Jesus was not offering the New Birth to Nicodemus as if he could have gotten born again in a Christian sense right then and there. The New Birth as Christians experience it was not available before the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. It was then that for the very first time in history the gift of holy spirit was actually “born” inside a person. Even the apostles had to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be filled with holy spirit (Acts 1:8; 2:4), so Jesus could not have been offering the New Birth to Nicodemus.

The fifth point is that Jesus was not making a prophetic statement about the coming Church Age. The main reason Christians believe that Jesus was prophesying about holy spirit that came on Pentecost is that the words “born again” appear in the chapter, and they think it refers to the Christians’ New Birth. This reason is not valid however, because, as we have already shown, the phrase “born again” in John 3 is a mistranslation. Jesus Christ was speaking with Nicodemus about something of vital importance, i.e., a proper understanding of the Old Testament prophecies and the First Resurrection. A plain reading of John 3 indicates that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about a truth relevant to him at the time that he lived, not about a future reality that Nicodemus knew nothing about. Nicodemus could and should have known about the “birth from above,” i.e., the First Resurrection, and this rules out the idea that Christ was prophesying about the future New Birth because the New Birth and the things that accompany it were so secret that had Satan known about them he would not have crucified the Lord Jesus. [6] Furthermore, Jesus mentioned getting into the Kingdom, which is clearly after the Kingdom is made available—immediately after the First Resurrection.

In conclusion, in John 3 Jesus spoke about the First Resurrection. He wanted to clear up Nicodemus’ theology about the First Resurrection because Jesus, more than anyone, knew the freeing value of truth. Jesus’ statement that one cannot enter the Kingdom without being born from above was exactly what the Old Testament prophets had said hundreds of years earlier. The way to enter the Kingdom was to be born out of the grave by the spirit of God from above. Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus said because, as a Pharisee, he was not aware of the clear teaching of Scripture about resurrection. Jesus’ reproof of Nicodemus, including the fact that he pointed out that Nicodemus was a teacher, but did not know the truth himself, fits the fact that the First Resurrection is part of the Old Testament prophecy. Jesus’ statement that “the Spirit gives birth to spirit” is what happens, according to Ezekiel 37, when the Spirit (God) gives His spirit from above and it then gives life to dead ..."

Fun, with this "the Greek" scam, and "it all says the same thing"!!! Anyone can do it!!

 

[musterion]

Appears Jerry chose the NKJV there, a Thomas Nelson owned translation, if memory serves. Nelson is pretty strongly evangelical/SoBapt (same thing these days), so shoehorning "rebirth" in that verse where water baptism is found...well, I'm not saying that's denominational/baptistic flavoring, but I'm guessing it is.

 

[john w]

Appears Jerry chose the NKJV there, a Thomas Nelson owned translation, if memory serves. Nelson is pretty strongly evangelical/SoBapt (same thing these days), so shoehorning "rebirth" in that verse where water baptism is found...well, I'm not saying that's denominational/baptistic flavoring, but I'm guessing it is.

There can be no doubt, whatsoever, brother musterion! "We see," that Jerry has no answers, and is running, and hiding, like the plague. He is also engaging in assassination attempts,"personal" attacks, and does not "believe the bible, when it says, 'fill in the blank'!"

 

[Right Divider]

Appears Jerry chose the NKJV there, a Thomas Nelson owned translation, if memory serves. Nelson is pretty strongly evangelical/SoBapt (same thing these days), so shoehorning "rebirth" in that verse where water baptism is found...well, I'm not saying that's denominational/baptistic flavoring, but I'm guessing it is.

Jerry will use just about any translation that serves his purpose for telling the story the way that he wants it told. He will even use the horrible NIV if he thinks that he can fool us.

He'll even become a Greek expert if needed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Want to play "the Greek" con game, deception, eh, Jer?

"The second point addresses the fact the Greek words translated “born again” in John 3 are not the same Greek words translated “born again” in the Epistles.

Don't you know the difference between a "noun" and a "verb"?

Of course they are not the same word since the Greek word translated "born" at John 3:3 is a verb while the Greek word translated "rebirth" at Titus 3:5 is a "noun."

The Greek word translated "born" at John 3:3, which is a "verb," is gennaō and it means "to be born."

One of the meanings of the Greek word anōthen which is used at John 3:3 and which is an adverb is "again." That is the way the KJV translates it.

The Greek "noun" translated "rebirth" is the word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity."

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action."

Is the KJV translation in error?

 

[musterion]

Since going MAD I have taken "born again" as primarily meaning Israel as a whole needed to be born again unto her prophesied purpose -- not so much each individual Jew (even though they indeed need to be born again). The nation is usually the context in things like this.

 

[musterion]

The KJ:

⁵ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


⁶ Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


⁷ That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Seems to me that repentant Israelites were justified by faith in Messiah exemplified by submission to the water rite, which resulted in their being born again. That's what was required.

We are justified by grace alone through faith alone, without any rituals.

So what does John 3's "born again" have to do with salvation under this dispensation of grace? Nothing--today the regeneration IS the washing, according to Paul, not H20 washing unto regeneration as in John 3.

 

[Right Divider]

Since going MAD I have taken "born again" as primarily meaning Israel as a whole needed to be born again unto her prophesied purpose -- not so much each individual Jew (even though they indeed need to be born again). The nation is usually the context in things like this.

This is one of the great benefits of the KJV. It keeps the distinction between singular and plural in personal pronouns.

THEE and THOU are SINGULAR, whereas YE and YOU are PLURAL.

This is extremely helpful when understanding what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus.

Joh 3:7 KJV Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

The YE is NOT Nicodemus singularly, the THEE is.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Seems to me that repentant Israelites were justified by faith in Messiah exemplified by submission to the water rite, which resulted in their being born again. That's what was required.

Would you please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord Jesus which wwere addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Hint:

The following words of the Lord Jesus were also addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[musterion]

Would you please give me your interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord Jesus which wwere addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Hint:

The following words of the Lord Jesus were also addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

They still had to submit to water baptism.