Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[way 2 go]

The Gentiles have the law written in their hearts and the conscience bears witness to that law (Ro.2:14-25).

when did that happen? hint not in Moses time

Jer_31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

will = future

Let's talk about the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Christ came. Were they saved by faith alone? Here is what the Lord Jesus said to them:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

but before that he said ...

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."

Did the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul was writing his epistles saved by faith alone?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul wrote the following words received the blessedness spoken of here?:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (Ro.4:6-9).​

Israel was cut off when Paul received the dispensation of grace
works of the law are no longer necessary now.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

when did that happen? hint not in Moses time

So you not think that a person possessed a "conscience" even as late as Moses 'time?

Israel was cut off when Paul received the dispensation of grace
works of the law are no longer necessary now.

So none of the Jews who lived from the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth and afterward had to do works to be saved?

 

[way 2 go]

So you not think that a person possessed a "conscience" even as late as Moses 'time?

conscience ? yes

law was written in stone not on their hearts

Deu 12:8 "You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,

So none of the Jews who lived from the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth and afterward had to do works to be saved?

works were necessary until Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

conscience ? yes

law was written in stone not on their hearts

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).​

works were necessary until Paul

How is it possible that you cannot understand what the Lord Jesus said here to the Jews who lived under the law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you think that the lord Jesus just forgot to mention works?

 

[way 2 go]

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).​

when was the law written in their hearts ?
Jer 31:33

Do you think that the lord Jesus just forgot to mention works?

no he didn't .


Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

when was the law written in their hearts ?
Jer 31:33

You obviously forgot that we were speaking of the Gentiles and not the Jews.

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

Clarence Larkin wrote:

"Adam and Eve had no conscience before the 'Fall.' Conscience is a knowledge of 'Good' and 'Evil,' and this Adam and Eve did not have until they had their eyes opened by eating of the 'Fruit' of the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' " (Larkin, Rightly Dividing The Word [Rev. Clarence Larkin Est.], 19).​

Dr. Renald E. Showers wrote the following:

"Genesis 3:5 and 22 indicate that mankind obtained its awareness of good and evil as a result of eating the forbidden fruit. In other words, the human conscience began when man rebelled against God...Paul indicated that the conscience is the awareness of good and evil which exists inside human beings. It condemns people internally when they do something in the category of evil, and it commends them internally when they do something in the category of good" (Showers, The Second Dispensation, Ankerberg Theological Research Institute).​

We also read the following in The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy:

"The Edenic covenant is tied to the dispensation of innocence, whereby God tested man to see if he would live by God's conditions. God told man not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). The dispensation ended in man's failure--Eve was deceived (1 Timothy 2:14) and Adam deliberately disobeyed. As a result, the first man had personal and experiental knowledge of good and evil. What seemed like a simple, limited act of eating fruit ended in a broad, conscious knowledge of right and wrong. In the next dispensation, the descendants of Adam were responsible for this new awareness of sin" [emphasis added] (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, ed.Tim LaHaye & Ed Hindson, [Eugene: Harvest House, 2004], 86).​

no he didn't .

Since you think that the Jews who were under the law at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth could not be saved apart from works they why did the Lord not mention any works here?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[way 2 go]

You obviously forgot that we were speaking of the Gentiles and not the Jews.

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil " (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

you just proved the knowledge of good and evil to all mankind nothing else

#336Yes, a person could obtain eternal life by keeping the law (with faith)
#332 I never said that they were not to keep the law
#316 Jews who lived under the law

you are confused you want to put salvation by faith grace from Paul's dispensation into Moses's dispensation of law (faith works) .

Rom 11:6 vs Lev 4:31:execute:

Since you think that the Jews who were under the law at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth could not be saved apart from works they why did the Lord not mention any works here?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

the chapter is about Jesus works and not being believed

Joh 5:8 Jesus said to him, "Get up, take up your bed, and walk."
Joh 5:9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked. Now that day was the Sabbath.

Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

and faith in Jesus

Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

his audience believed that the keeping of the law could save them apart from faith

Joh 5:16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.

Joh 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you are confused you want to put salvation by faith grace from Paul's dispensation into Moses's dispensation of law (faith works)

It is you who is confused when it comes to understanding what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of the "dispensation of grace."

the chapter is about Jesus works and not being believed

But you fail to mention that the Lord said that those who believe have eternal life and will not be judged:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

So according to your ideas no one who lived under the law was saved by faith alone even though we see the following spoken to one who lived under the Law?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Was Peter wrong when he spoke of his own salvation as being of grace and just like the salvation of the Gentiles?:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Was Peter wrong when he said the following:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

According to your ideas God did indeed treat the Jew and the Gentile differently because the Jews could not be saved unless they did works!

 

[way 2 go]

It is you who is confused when it comes to understanding what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of the "dispensation of grace."

#332 I never said that they were not to keep the law

are you calling works grace ?

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings,
and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

So according to your ideas no one who lived under the law was saved by faith alone even though we see the following spoken to one who lived under the Law?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Was Peter wrong when he spoke of his own salvation as being of grace and just like the salvation of the Gentiles?:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Was Peter wrong when he said the following:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

Jews understood faith + works

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

are you calling works grace ?

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings,
and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Are you really unfder the impression that doing the works of the law actually took away sin?:

"But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Heb.10:3-4).​

For those under the law it was a person's "faith" and faith alone which took away sins and brought salvation, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words here:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

The Jews were cleansed from their sins in the same way as were the Gentiles. Peter said:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

You say that God treated the Jews differently than He did the Gentiles despite Pater's words that there is no difference.

Jews understood faith + works

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Those words were speaking of people who lived outside of the nation of Israel, not the Jews.

Besides that, the Lord Jesus declared to the Jews who lived under the law and believed received eternal life and will not be judged:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

No mention of works there!















Jews understood faith + works

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.[/QUOTE]

 

[way 2 go]

Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
#336Yes, a person could obtain eternal life by keeping the law (with faith)
#332 I never said that they were not to keep the law
#316 Jews who lived under the law

so you admit
Jews were under the law
had to keep the law

but it was ok if they didn't because in Saul's day it was by grace
and God forgave all.

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and
has not performed my commandments." And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the LORD all night.
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

so you admit
Jews were under the law
had to keep the law

Of course they were under the law but they were saved by faith alone.

but it was ok if they didn't because in Saul's day it was by grace
and God forgave all.

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and
has not performed my commandments." And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the LORD all night.
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.

In order to understand what is said at 1 Samuel 16:14 the whole context must be understood:

"And the Lord said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?...Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him...And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him" (1 Sam.16:1,13-14,23).​

The giving of the Spirit of the Lord to David was the supernatural authentication of God's will in regard to the giving of the throne of Israel to David. Likewise, the taking away of the Spirit from Saul was a supernatural authentication of God's will in regard to the taking away of the throne from Saul.

If you actually want to know the truth if those who lived under the law could lose their salvation all you have to do is to study the Lord Jesus' words spoken to those who lived under the law. Here He said:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.10:37).​

Frankly, I am dismayed and appalled that so many just deny these words of the Lord Jesus. I am equally dismayed by those who say that the Jews who lived under the law had to do works in order to be saved since the Lord Jesus said that faith is all that is needed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

 

[way 2 go]

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

so by your philosophy demons are saved because
all you have to do is believe .

 

[Poly]

This book changed my life.

 

[Nang]

This book changed my life.

How?

 

[way 2 go]

This book changed my life.

knowing the plot twist really explains everything .

 

[musterion]

There were Gentiles in the "commonwealth of Israel" during Acts. Some were circumcised and became Jews , and some were uncircumcised.

These are the Gentiles Paul was sent to first. They were in the commonwealth of Israel and in the promise made to Abraham because they were with the Jews in the synagogue worshiping the God of Abraham.


LATER, Paul was sent to Gentiles who were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". They were outside of the promise made to Abraham. In short, pagans.

Yes, amen, but we certainly cannot say the same thing about Gentiles like the Ephesians to whom Paul wrote the letter Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV (people like you and me).

If you had to come up with one, what would a general breakdown of "near" Gentiles and "far" Gentiles be, according to whom Paul wrote his letters? Maybe...

Near: Romans, Galatians, 1/2 Corinthians (possibly)

Far: Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc

Would that be close?

 

[heir]

If you had to come up with one, what would a general breakdown of "near" Gentiles and "far" Gentiles be, according to whom Paul wrote his letters? Maybe...

Near: Romans, Galatians, 1/2 Corinthians (possibly)

Far: Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc

Would that be close?

Yes!

1st group (those who first trusted Ephesians 1:12 KJV beginning with Paul)

Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Thessalonians


2nd group (those who "also trusted" Ephesians 1:13 KJV)

Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians

 

[musterion]

Interesting how the truths given in Romans are relatively "nuts-and-bolts" yet deeply profound, and directed to those with knowledge of Judaism, while the truths in Ephesians -- directed to those with little if any prior knowledge -- are so sublime and heavenly. I really want to ponder this but I know it's beyond me.

 

[heir]

Interesting how the truths given in Romans are relatively "nuts-and-bolts" yet deeply profound, and directed to those with knowledge of Judaism, while the truths in Ephesians -- directed to those with little if any prior knowledge -- are so sublime and heavenly. I really want to ponder this but I know it's beyond me.

You're seeing it. Happy studying!