way 2 go
Well-known member
so that's a Yes to
you reinterpret verses so they no longer mean what they say.
Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?
- Thread starter way 2 go
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you reinterpret verses so they no longer mean what they say.
Now that is just funny. Saul had the Spirit taken, and distressing spirit put in its place. He did not have eternal life. The Body of Christ has eternal life. Paul was second, after the Lord Jesus Christ, and the first person from Adam.
What does that have to do with salvation? Do you covet?
But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. (Luke 23:34 NASB)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You say that I do not correctly interpret the meaning of Scriptures but you do not say where I make an error.
And of course you just ignore verses which contradict your ideas, like this one which demonstrates that David was saved apart from works:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).
We can also see here that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
If keeping the works of the law was necessary for salvation in regard to those under the law then their salvation could not be described as being on the principle of grace.
Those two verses alone prove that those who were under the law did not have to do works to be saved and that is why you refuse to address them.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, what is funny is how you want nothing to do with the verses which I quoted that prove that those who lived under the law were saved by faith alone and enjoyed eternal security.
This flies in the face of what Jesus told His disciples in John 17:3-4
[Jesus][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]“[/FONT][/FONT]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”[/Jesus]
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. (John 17:3, 4 NASB)
I think that this meant we should not allow a brother to use us. If he repents forgive. But that does not mean we are free to have in unforgiveness towards AnyOne regardless of their actions. We should protect ourselves from anyone seeking to do us harm for the sake of pure evil but in our hearts we are commanded to have the mind of Christ as in Romans 15.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Mat_23:13
did Jesus forgive these pharisees he was talking to ?
speaking to roman soldiers Joh 19:24
did Jesus forgive these pharisees he was talking to ?
speaking to roman soldiers Joh 19:24
way 2 go
Well-known member
Abram had a covenant of grace here ,no works
Gen 15:5-17 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Abraham had a covenant of grace with works
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
..
Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised
Israelite's were saved at birth confirmed with circumcision
8 days later
they could and some did lose there salvation
Num 26:9 The sons of Eliab: Nemuel, Dathan, and Abiram. These are the Dathan and Abiram, chosen from the congregation, who contended against Moses and Aaron in the company of Korah, when they contended against the LORD
Num 26:10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, when the fire devoured 250 men, and they became a warning.
What does that have to do with the subject at hand?
I never said we should hold grudges. Grudges and not forgiving are not the same thing.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'm not "making assumptions" except to "assume" that saved men and women will allow the Holy Ghost to teach them comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV).
I'm not sure what you mean by "Luke telling the story second-hand from memory". Luke spake as the Holy Ghost moved him. Luke spoke and wrote exactly what God would have him (John 14:26 KJV, 2 Peter 1:21 KJV, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). I know that there are many details recorded by Luke including the testimony of Paul in the 3 accounts of the Lord's first appearing to Saul of Tarsus. I also know from scripture that there is more than one appearing, the promise of more appearing(s) from the risen Lord Jesus Christ to Paul (Acts 26:16 KJV, 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV) and more than one sending (Acts 26:16-17 KJV and Acts 22:17-21 KJV).
I think you're ignoring details in scripture that show different sendings.
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heir
TOL Subscriber
That is not our pattern for forgiving one another. This is:
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
I looked up your quote it was wrong.
Grudges/forgiving I understand what you are saying. But I also understand that forgiving requires suffering. When someone sins against you they create pain in your life. If they don't care about your pain you suffer greatly. If they apologize it lessons that pain but it is still there even if that offender has taken steps to repay you and make it up to you. But when the offender does not care about what he has done you experience exactly what Yeshua experienced from our own pain we inflicted upon Him.
He bore our debt thru extreme suffering.
David bore extreme emotional anguish over Saul's attempt to kill him. Yet David who had a heart after God's/Yeshua's heart forgave Saul and bore that pain w/out any repentance from Saul.
My point is that a Christian is a Christ like person. A saved person in my terminology is a Believer. Believers are sometimes in Christlike.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are really out of touch with reality if you think that the verses which you quoted somehow prove that those who lived under the law must do works of the law in order to be saved.
Again, the following passage demonstrates that David, who lived under the law, was saved apart from works:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).
We can also see here that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
If keeping the works of the law was necessary for salvation in regard to those under the law then their salvation could not be described as being on the principle of grace.
Those two verses alone prove that those who were under the law did not have to do works to be saved.
No, you're reading something into the text that isn't there.
And He forgave us when we repented.
No it isn't. Try looking in more than one version, doofus. And don't get in a tiff over the name-calling, because you deserve it for not considering that I used a different version than you thought to look into.
I quoted the New King James Version.
And?
If someone pains you and you tell them they are forgiven, regardless, then what lesson have they learned? Will they not continue to harm you, as you continue to let them get away with it? And how far will it escalate?
heir
TOL Subscriber
I've shown plenty of things that differ, but I can't make you see something you refuse to.
God forgave the sin/sins debt nearly 2000 years before we were ever born when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV). I didn't "repent" of anything. I trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV. The point stands. Our pattern for forgiving one another is Ephesians 4:32 KJV.
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV