Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[Jerry Shugart]

And King Saul?

Are you saying that King Saul was saved by doing the works of the Law?

If so, where is your evidence?

And why did you just ignore the facts about David's salvation here?:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

And why did you just ignore this verse where we see that both those under the law and those who are not are saved by grace through faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[Nick M]

King Saul had the Spirit taken from him. He lost life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

King Saul had the Spirit taken from him. He lost life.

Even those living under the law could not lose their salvation. They received eternal life the moment when they believed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).​

Besides that, the Lord Jesus said the following about all those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

They were saved by faith and faith alone, just as we are. They also enjoyed eternal security, just like we do. Besides that, you continue to ignore the facts about David's salvation here?:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

And why did you just ignore this verse where we see that both those under the law and those who are not are saved by grace through faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[intojoy]

He says believe his gospel to be saved. Or am I missing something?



It would be wrong to not forgive somebody who did us harm, if that person has repented for what they did. And maybe they even made up for it on their own. During the dispensation of grace, you could not forgive and hold a grudge. Doesn't matter. He died for my sin and my failures. That isn't what is right, but changes nothing in terms of having the righteousness of Christ.



It is very obvious to me there are two sets of standards for righteousness in the Bible. One is what God gave Israel, the other is what God gave Paul for us.

Hi Nick
I think it is wrong to not forgive that person even if they refuse to repent.
That's what I've learned as a Christian.

 

[glorydaz]

You just made up a ridiculous concept to a so-called "royal" we. You are unable to give at least one example from the Bible where any author of any epistles used a pronoun that identified himself as an unbeliever.

And you have the ridiculous concept that John was not speaking as a Jew, but as a member of the body of Christ. John was addressing the gnostics....he wasn't saying he was one of them, but he was a Jew just as they were. He is addressing his fellow JEWS. Some who claimed fellowship with God but denied Jesus was the True Light come in the flesh.

Your silly idea is laughable, just as is your idea that you have not sinned since you were saved.

And you quote John out of one side of your mouth and ignore him out of the other. You have to tweak this verse instead of reading it as written.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

When we confess our sins we are judging ourselves. And here is what Paul has to say about that:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).​

How can anyone judge themselves without acknowledging or confessing his sins?It is impossible.

One has to be under the law in order to have sins. There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. You're claiming there is and it's our "confession of sin" that cleanses us instead of our confession of Jesus as LORD. I "judge" myself when acknowledging my "faults"....not my sins which the Lord has already removed far from me...paying the price for them Himself.

John 10:8-10
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
​

Your insistance that believers can walk after the flesh after they are saved means your claim of not losing salvation is a bunch of baloney. You speak out of both sides of your mouth, just like Jason does. You have believers jumping back and forth from the darkness into the light just like he does. And your reading of 1 John is why you preach such a mixed message.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ​

 

[glorydaz]

Yes SalmonCruncher "we" "us" you eat too much fish oil...

I guess since you can get away with it, I can, too, Fudge Packer. Wanna play?

 

[glorydaz]

He says believe his gospel to be saved. Or am I missing something?

It would be wrong to not forgive somebody who did us harm, if that person has repented for what they did. And maybe they even made up for it on their own. During the dispensation of grace, you could not forgive and hold a grudge. Doesn't matter. He died for my sin and my failures. That isn't what is right, but changes nothing in terms of having the righteousness of Christ.

It is very obvious to me there are two sets of standards for righteousness in the Bible. One is what God gave Israel, the other is what God gave Paul for us.

The one being IF you forgive others, you will be forgiven. The other being you are forgiven when you believe. It's only when we have a heart purified by faith that we are even able to forgive in the way the Lord intended. We can say with our mouth, I forgive you, but it's the heart the Lord looks at. As I see it, that's one major difference between law and grace. And it's the indwelling Spirit that makes the difference.

 

[way 2 go]

I can see that the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24 mean nothing to you since it does not match your ideas.

But what about David? He lived under the law but Paul makes it plain that he was saved apart from works:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

Even those living under the law could not lose their salvation. They received eternal life the moment when they believed:

what about Solomon

Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

 

[intojoy]

I guess since you can get away with it, I can, too, Fudge Packer. Wanna play?

Me no play

 

[way 2 go]

Hi Nick
I think it is wrong to not forgive that person even if they refuse to repent.
That's what I've learned as a Christian.

Mat_23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

did Jesus forgive these pharisees he was talking to ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And you have the ridiculous concept that John was not speaking as a Jew, but as a member of the body of Christ. John was addressing the gnostics....

You must be convinced that the Apostle John was telling unbelievers that in order to have their sins forgiven they must confess their sins.

Nothing could be further from the truth and that just proves that you really have no understanding how unbelievers get their sins forgiven:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).​

It is not until unbelievers believe in Jesus Christ that their sins are forgiven.

You can tell unbelievers that if they will confess their sins then their sins will be forgiven but you will not be telling them the truth. They can confess their sins until they are blue in the face and not even one of them will be forgiven.

Your ideas are easily proven to be in error.

He is addressing his fellow JEWS. Some who claimed fellowship with God but denied Jesus was the True Light come in the flesh.

Why in the world would the Apostle John be telling unbelievers that their sins will be forgiven if they will confess their sins?

He knew that it is only by believing in the Lord Jesus that unbelievers have their sins forgiven. Your ideas make no sense.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

what about Solomon

Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Why do you continue to ignore the verses which I quoted?

You want me to answer all of yours but you refuse to answer any of mine. At Ezekiel 18:24 both the blessing and the judgment are both temporal and not eternal.

But when it comes to verses that speak of the eternal things regarding the Jewish believers you want nothing to do with them. Here we see that they received eternal life the moment when they believed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).​

The Lord Jesus also said the following about all those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

But you want to ignore the very words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law and run off to a verse which speaks of only of temporal things.

 

[way 2 go]

Even those living under the law could not lose their salvation. They received eternal life the moment when they believed:

If any verse in the bible contradicts your proof text verse
you reinterpret that verse so it no longer means what it says ?

that's not Mid Acts Dispensation

 

[way 2 go]

just another thought on Cornelius

from the plot we get that Jesus started the current dispensation
with Paul
which ended the dispensation given to Peter
which puts Cornelius in the body of Christ

:think:

 

[intojoy]

Mat_23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.



did Jesus forgive these pharisees he was talking to ?

You just checkmated yourself hehe

I'll let you figure it out before nuke n' your questchaan

 

[Nick M]

That is exactly what will happen to only those who are in the Body of Christ

Of course it will. The difference is how. I am a joint heir, brought near by his blood, not Israel.

 

[Nick M]

Even those living under the law could not lose their salvation. They received eternal life the moment when they believed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).​

If they do not believe him, of course he will not take them. But you leave off their requirements. Why do you ignore the Lord Jesus Christ teaching and demanding the law of Israel? God told them do it and they shall live.

As for post cross teaching....

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

That is a rhetorical question if you can't tell, and it is a rhetorical yes.

 

[Lighthouse]

It shows the second sending. I took a look back in the thread. You wanted to know what "shows us this was much later than his initially being sent". It screams different! Look at verse 17 in Acts 22. That is not what happened in Acts 9. Paul (then Saul) was not in the temple praying and in a trance when the risen, ascended Lord Jesus Christ first appeared to him in Acts 9. Was he?

Acts 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

Of course not. Saul was here in Acts 9 at the first appearing:

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:


Luke's account in Acts 26 about the Acts 9 encounter gives us much detail. Pay close attention to the language in the King James Bible. There is not only one appearing and sending, but the promise of a future appearing and instructions. There is a specific audience and an immediate sending in Acts 9..." unto whom now I send thee". Watch the tenses.

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,




The sending in Acts 22 is different. "Now send thee" is not the same as "will send thee". The tenses are different, not to mention that I believe the Gentiles to whom Paul was making known that he was going to be sent in Acts 22, were different.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Acts 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

Acts 22:24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

That is the "cause" that Paul was a "prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles" (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1 KJV).

You are making assumptions that the initial telling of the story was the full story of said event. Whereas Acts 9 is Luke telling the story second-hand from memory and Acts 11, 22, and 26 is Paul telling the story of what happened directly to him. There is no evidence there were two different callings of Paul.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If any verse in the bible contradicts your proof text verse
you reinterpret that verse so it no longer means what it says ?

There is no verse which contradicts the verses I quoted.

that's not Mid Acts Dispensation

Are you aware that the man who is the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson, taught that all men are saved in the same way--by grace through faith apart from works.

In fact, Paul speaks of David in this passage and David lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

We can also see here that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

" Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If keeping the works of the law was necessary for salvation in regard to those under the law then their salvation could not be described as being on the principle of grace.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If they do not believe him, of course he will not take them. But you leave off their requirements.

I am not ignoring the context. He says that those who "believe" have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).​

Here the Lord Jesus tells a woman that her faith saved her:

" And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).

Why do you ignore the Lord Jesus Christ teaching and demanding the law of Israel? God told them do it and they shall live.

Yes, if they keep the law perfectly then they will receive eternal life. But all have sinned and that is why Paul said that by the law shall no one be justified in the eyes of God (Ro.3:20).

The only alternative is being saved by God's grace, and if it is of works then it cannot be said to be on the principle of grace.

As for post cross teaching....

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

That is a rhetorical question if you can't tell, and it is a rhetorical yes.

First of all, James makes it plain that those to whom he addressed his words were born of God exactly the same way which we are:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18).​

Sir Robert Anderson, the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, has the following to say about what James is teaching:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​