Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

Hoping

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Are you ready to honestly say that those walking in darkness, now, are in the light?

Where do you come up with these questions?
What in the world are you talking about?
It's nonsensical, to say the least.
You previously posted that John is Law and Paul is prophesy.
So you are inferring that whatever John says is not prophesy...or true.
Is that your POV?

It interests me that your doctrine keeps dividing Jewish from Gentile like that, but agrees that we are all one, based on Eth 2:14.
But it seems that nothing of the Jewish faith persists into Christianity...according to your POV.
Even the epistles written by Jewish Christians are discounted as being written ONLY to other Jews.

So, does a Christian Gentile need to believe what Jesus, a Jew, taught?
Specifically, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matt 22:37-39)
 

glorydaz

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You previously posted that John is Law and Paul is prophesy.
So you are inferring that whatever John says is not prophesy...or true.
Is that your POV?

It interests me that your doctrine keeps dividing Jewish from Gentile like that, but agrees that we are all one, based on Eth 2:14.
But it seems that nothing of the Jewish faith persists into Christianity...according to your POV.
Even the epistles written by Jewish Christians are discounted as being written ONLY to other Jews.

So, does a Christian Gentile need to believe what Jesus, a Jew, taught?
Specifically, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matt 22:37-39)

You previously posted that John is Law and Paul is prophesy.
So you are inferring that whatever John says is not prophesy...or true.
Is that your POV?
First of all, I didn't say that. I was pointing out the difference between law/ prophecy and mystery.

No sense discussing what you think I might have been inferring -- you're wrong in either case.
It interests me that your doctrine keeps dividing Jewish from Gentile like that, but agrees that we are all one, based on Eth 2:14.

Actually, it's not my doctrine, it's what the bible has shown us quite clearly.
I'm not the one doing the dividing, God did that.
The Jews were God's chosen people, and they will remain His chosen people.

Read more and you'll see more. Talk more and you'll see less.

According to Paul's gospel of grace, there is neither Jew nor Greek, man nor woman, bond nor free.
Until Paul came, so many such truths had been kept hidden.
But it seems that nothing of the Jewish faith persists into Christianity...according to your POV.
Even the epistles written by Jewish Christians are discounted as being written ONLY to other Jews.

The entire Bible, except for Paul's letters, was written to the Jews. That doesn't mean we discount anything in the Bible.

So, does a Christian Gentile need to believe what Jesus, a Jew, taught?

No, we need to believe what Jesus did on the cross.
We understand what Jesus was saying, and we know why He was saying it, and we know who He was speaking to.

However, we absolutely need to believe what the Risen Lord revealed to the Apostle Paul.
What Jesus said to the Jews while He walked among us, does not apply to us.
What the ascended and risen LORD tells us through Paul is what we're concerned with.
Specifically, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matt 22:37-39)

Which man cannot do until the love of God is shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Man can claim anything, but the ability to love must be given by God Himself.
 

Clete

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I hear your POV, and the "sentence" is..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
No, that isn't the sentence at all.

I thought the next verse was also pertinent..."Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13)
I don't follow. How is either sentence pertinent to allowing one to read and understand the bible such that the answers to questions that Christians have argued and fought over for centuries become intuitively clear and leaves you with no problem texts to explain away?

I am truly interested in your choice of sentences.
Jesus, the Creator of everything in the flesh, spent three years teaching both his disciples in general and the Twelve Apostles in particular. He sent them out to preach to the whole world and in addition to Christ's one on one teaching, the twelve (including Matthias) were also given the Holy Spirit to boot.

Have you ever asked yourself why there was any need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why Paul? Where is the need for Paul?

Jesus and the Twelve preached to Israel a gospel of repentance. "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near." was their message in a nutshell, and that message didn't change hardly at all after Jesus went to the Father, either....

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.​
Then after giving the premise for his message, Peter gives the punch line....​
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”​
The change here is only concerning three things, Calvary (i.e. the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus), the fact that Jesus is the Christ (i.e. Israel's Messiah - King) and the giving of the Holy Spirit. Significant additions to be sure but not a radical departure from the main thrust of the message.

Now, fast forward a bit and we find that while many were added every day, Israel as a nation, officially rejected Jesus and their Messiah when they refused to accept Stephen's "irresistible wisdom" (Acts 6:10) and murdered him. Present at this murder, we find two people. One is a man named Saul who threw in his lot with those who murdered Stephen and approved of their actions. The other was Jesus Himself, "Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!". Standing, in this context, implies judgement is fixing to be dispensed and this was certainly the case in Acts 7.

Then, skipping ahead just a bit, we find Saul being converted on the his way to Damascus and he then becomes Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles and preached a gospel that he was not taught by men but that he received by direct divine revelation (Galatians 1:12). He was then sent, again by revelation, to Jerusalem in order to explain this gospel to the Twelve (Galatians 2:2).

Think about that! Why would one apostle need to explain the gospel to another apostle?

Well, at the risk of being overly simplistic, Paul had to explain it to them because it was different! Paul explains "his gospel", which he called "the gospel of the uncircumcision" to the leaders in Jerusalem (i.e. Peter, James, John, et al ) to whom had been given the "gospel of the circumcision" and in response to having heard Paul's testimony, they made the following agreement with Paul...

Galatians 2:9 and when James, Peter, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

Thus, Paul's gospel is not only different but so is his audience. The Twelve were apostles to Israel (which is why there were twelve, by the way. Twelve being the number biblically associated with Israel.) and Paul was THE apostle to the Gentiles and if all you do is keep this single biblical fact in mind while reading the New Testament, then pretty nearly all the major doctrinal conflicts that have plagued the church for centuries all become really really easy to resolve. Passages that seem to conflict now don't! Romans 4:5 and James 2:24 both mean precisely what they seem to mean and there is no conflict between them because what they are saying fits with the gospel that was being preached to their respective audiences. Paul was preaching a gospel of faith only with no works required while James was under the law and his followers were all "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20) and so, naturally, faith mixed with works would be required.

There is obvious much more to say but that should get the ball rolling and I'm out of time for this morning!

God bless!
Clete
 

Poly

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Well, I’m assuming he believes in the death of Christ that allows for his sins to be covered through Christs sacrifice and believes in his resurrection which is the reason we can have hope of eternal salvation. That’s all that’s needed.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Well, I’m assuming he believes in the death of Christ that allows for his sins to be covered through Christs sacrifice and believes in his resurrection which is the reason we can have hope of eternal salvation. That’s all that’s needed.

Problem is, the saving faith of Calvinists is not really in the cross, it's in the election they hope they were chosen to and the perseverance that election must result in. Even reprobates can "believe" the gospel but it can't save them, so faith alone is no proof (to Calvinists).
 

Poly

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Problem is, the saving faith of Calvinists is not really in the cross, it's in the election they hope they were chosen to and the perseverance that election must result in. Even reprobates can "believe" the gospel but it can't save them, so faith alone is no proof (to Calvinists).
They may believe this but on judgement day they’ll realize it had nothing to do with this but that they believed all of what I mentioned. I think all Calvinists believe this and that’s what really matters.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Regarding my question, it wasn't an attempt to get Beloved57 to doubt his salvation. I have full confidence that he is saved.
Yes, when we try to understand a different pov it is always a struggle to decide if they are worshipping a false god correctly (according to his lies, Rom 1) or if they are worshiping the True GOD falsely, ie, making a mistake about HIS true revelation.
 
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ttruscott

Well-known member
Problem is, the saving faith of Calvinists is not really in the cross, it's in the election they hope they were chosen to and the perseverance that election must result in.
While I'm not Calvinist, I have been told often enough that though they understand the use of election to seperate people out, it is the cross they depend upon for their salvation, the fulfillment of the salvation promised by election.
 
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Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
We can't know what's in a person's heart. I'm of the opinion that there are saved people even in the Catholic church.
Gee thanks! ;)
When people see Jesus lifted up on the cross, and put their faith in Him, they can be saved.
1st Corinthians 2:1 " 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
This in spite of any other strange beliefs they might have fallen for.
:noid: lol
 

musterion

Well-known member
We can't know what's in a person's heart. I'm of the opinion that there are saved people even in the Catholic church.

When people see Jesus lifted up on the cross, and put their faith in Him, they can be saved. This in spite of any other strange beliefs they might have fallen for.
Respectfully and sadly disagree.

When false teachers came to Galatia preaching the work of circumcision to those already saved by Paul's gospel, he called it "another gospel" which was not in fact any kind of good news. So much so that those preaching it were accursed.

I'm willing to be wrong on this when I stand before the judgement seat, AND I'D LOVE TO BE WRONG, but I have grown convinced over the years that there is almost no church and very few people who preach Paul's gospel in its purity, so anyone who believes any other gospel is not saved, even if they believe 1 Cor 15 3-4, which nearly every denomination and cult will say they believe. But like Galatia, it's what's always added to God's grace and to the finished work of Christ that denies both.

What's added?

Works.

PS

You can know someone's heart when they tell you what's in it.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
Respectfully and sadly disagree.

When false teachers came to Galatia preaching the work of circumcision to those already saved by Paul's gospel, he called it "another gospel" which was not in fact any kind of good news. So much so that those preaching it were accursed.

I'm willing to be wrong on this when I stand before the judgement seat, AND I'D LOVE TO BE WRONG, but I have grown convinced over the years that there is almost no church and very few people who preach Paul's gospel in its purity, so anyone who believes any other gospel is not saved, even if they believe 1 Cor 15 3-4, which nearly every denomination and cult will say they believe. But like Galatia, it's what's always added to God's grace and to the finished work of Christ that denies both.

What's added?

Works.

PS

You can know someone's heart when they tell you what's in it.
Well put, brother. Nothing is to be added to Christ's work on the cross.
Those who preach circumcision, baptism, repentance, confession of sin, and any other work are to be cursed.
Paul's words hit home when you realize what he's talking about. And, yes, it's the kingdom gospel, he's referring to.

Sadly, when you ask someone if they're saved, they will, invariably say, "Oh, yes, I've been baptised." Or, "I always repent of my sins and confess them to God." Or, "I keep the commandments." Or, "I forgive others so I can be forgiven." On and on, we see the tells everyday right here on the forum. Most professing Christians today only know the Kingdom gospel. It's sad.

It's satan's work that Paul's letters have been shoved to the back burner, hardly, if ever, have people even heard what he's written.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sadly, when you ask someone if they're saved, they will, invariably say, "Oh, yes, I've been baptised." Or, "I always repent of my sins and confess them to God." Or, "I keep the commandments." Or, "I forgive others so I can be forgiven." On and on, we see the tells everyday right here on the forum.

Or even worse: "I've been a Christian since I was born."

Most professing Christians today only know the Kingdom gospel. It's sad.

It's satan's work that Paul's letters have been shoved to the back burner, hardly, if ever, have people even heard what he's written.
 

Hoping

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Banned
First of all, I didn't say that. I was pointing out the difference between law/ prophecy and mystery.
No sense discussing what you think I might have been inferring -- you're wrong in either case.
OK.
Actually, it's not my doctrine, it's what the bible has shown us quite clearly.
I'm not the one doing the dividing, God did that.
The Jews were God's chosen people, and they will remain His chosen people.
I find it difficult to find the converted, grafted in Gentiles, NOT God's chosen people too.
Read more and you'll see more. Talk more and you'll see less.
According to Paul's gospel of grace, there is neither Jew nor Greek, man nor woman, bond nor free.
Until Paul came, so many such truths had been kept hidden.
Neither Jew nor Gentile...but only the Jews are God's chosen people?
That makes no sense.
The entire Bible, except for Paul's letters, was written to the Jews. That doesn't mean we discount anything in the Bible.
It was written to all who will heed it.
No, we need to believe what Jesus did on the cross.
I find that "no" ridiculous.
We understand what Jesus was saying, and we know why He was saying it, and we know who He was speaking to.
As there is no longer Jew or Gentile, it is obvious He was saying it to all of us.
However, we absolutely need to believe what the Risen Lord revealed to the Apostle Paul.
What Jesus said to the Jews while He walked among us, does not apply to us.
Including love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself?
What the ascended and risen LORD tells us through Paul is what we're concerned with.
I have found Paul's teachings on water baptism especially enlightening, thanks be to God.
His writings concerning perfect obedience to God and to His Son Jesus Christ also resonate with me.
Which man cannot do until the love of God is shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Man can claim anything, but the ability to love must be given by God Himself.
As that is true, isn't an act that is not loving a sure sign the Holy Spirit has not been shed abroad in our hearts?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
OK.

I find it difficult to find the converted, grafted in Gentiles, NOT God's chosen people too.

Neither Jew nor Gentile...but only the Jews are God's chosen people?
That makes no sense.

It was written to all who will heed it.

I find that "no" ridiculous.

As there is no longer Jew or Gentile, it is obvious He was saying it to all of us.

Including love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself?

I have found Paul's teachings on water baptism especially enlightening, thanks be to God.
His writings concerning perfect obedience to God and to His Son Jesus Christ also resonate with me.

As that is true, isn't an act that is not loving a sure sign the Holy Spirit has not been shed abroad in our hearts?
You don't have a clue about anything, do you?

The Jews were God's chosen people --the NATION of Israel. They were God's elect nation. Chosen.
Jesus Christ, Himself, is the Elect ONE. Those of us IN Christ are elect IN HIM.

Jesus only came to the Lost Sheep of ISRAEL. His chosen nation.
There is a HUGE difference between the PHYSICAL Kingdom on earth, and the spiritual Church of God...the body of Christ.

If you stay in your lane, you might end up "getting it".
 

Hoping

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No, that isn't the sentence at all.
I don't follow. How is either sentence pertinent to allowing one to read and understand the bible such that the answers to questions that Christians have argued and fought over for centuries become intuitively clear and leaves you with no problem texts to explain away?
My point was that without the gift of the Holy Spirit, we are still in the dark.
Jesus, the Creator of everything in the flesh, spent three years teaching both his disciples in general and the Twelve Apostles in particular. He sent them out to preach to the whole world and in addition to Christ's one on one teaching, the twelve (including Matthias) were also given the Holy Spirit to boot.
Have you ever asked yourself why there was any need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why Paul? Where is the need for Paul?
Are you so certain there were only 13?
Barnabus was called an apostle in Acts 14:14.
Anyone doing the work of an apostle is an apostle.
Jesus and the Twelve preached to Israel a gospel of repentance. "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near." was their message in a nutshell, and that message didn't change hardly at all after Jesus went to the Father, either....

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.​
Then after giving the premise for his message, Peter gives the punch line....​
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”​
Jesus and the twelve also preached it to the Gentiles, ie, the Canaanite woman, the Samaritans, the woman and town near Jacob's well, the Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius the centurion.
The change here is only concerning three things, Calvary (i.e. the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus), the fact that Jesus is the Christ (i.e. Israel's Messiah - King) and the giving of the Holy Spirit. Significant additions to be sure but not a radical departure from the main thrust of the message.
Agreed, summed up with Jesus' own words...Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Now, fast forward a bit and we find that while many were added every day, Israel as a nation, officially rejected Jesus and their Messiah when they refused to accept Stephen's "irresistible wisdom" (Acts 6:10) and murdered him. Present at this murder, we find two people. One is a man named Saul who threw in his lot with those who murdered Stephen and approved of their actions. The other was Jesus Himself, "Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!". Standing, in this context, implies judgement is fixing to be dispensed and this was certainly the case in Acts 7.
Ok, I'm following.
Then, skipping ahead just a bit, we find Saul being converted on the his way to Damascus and he then becomes Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles and preached a gospel that he was not taught by men but that he received by direct divine revelation (Galatians 1:12). He was then sent, again by revelation, to Jerusalem in order to explain this gospel to the Twelve (Galatians 2:2).
Here we go apart, as Paul preached the same "gospel" that Peter and the rest preached, that is...Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
He starts Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Thes, and 2 Tim with that message.
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:" (2 Tim 2:8)

Think about that! Why would one apostle need to explain the gospel to another apostle?
He wasn't.
Paul was only telling them what he preached to the Gentiles in order to get their affirmation that it was the same as their message to the Jews.
Different audiences doesn't make it a different gospel.
Well, at the risk of being overly simplistic, Paul had to explain it to them because it was different! Paul explains "his gospel", which he called "the gospel of the uncircumcision" to the leaders in Jerusalem (i.e. Peter, James, John, et al ) to whom had been given the "gospel of the circumcision" and in response to having heard Paul's testimony, they made the following agreement with Paul...

Galatians 2:9 and when James, Peter, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​
If Paul had been preaching something different, don't you think the original twelve would have had a fit?
I do.
I know they would have gone to great lengths to show that Paul was still working for the Pharisees.
Thus, Paul's gospel is not only different but so is his audience. The Twelve were apostles to Israel (which is why there were twelve, by the way. Twelve being the number biblically associated with Israel.) and Paul was THE apostle to the Gentiles and if all you do is keep this single biblical fact in mind while reading the New Testament, then pretty nearly all the major doctrinal conflicts that have plagued the church for centuries all become really really easy to resolve. Passages that seem to conflict now don't! Romans 4:5 and James 2:24 both mean precisely what they seem to mean and there is no conflict between them because what they are saying fits with the gospel that was being preached to their respective audiences. Paul was preaching a gospel of faith only with no works required while James was under the law and his followers were all "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20) and so, naturally, faith mixed with works would be required.
Please show one instance of the original twelve preaching Law for salvation.
(James 2 and Rom. 4 have never been in conflict for me)
There is obvious much more to say but that should get the ball rolling and I'm out of time for this morning!
God bless!
Clete
Thanks for the blessing, but you never said what the "sentence" was.
Or did I just miss it?
 
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Hoping

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Well put, brother. Nothing is to be added to Christ's work on the cross.
Those who preach circumcision, baptism, repentance, confession of sin, and any other work are to be cursed.
Paul's words hit home when you realize what he's talking about. And, yes, it's the kingdom gospel, he's referring to.

Sadly, when you ask someone if they're saved, they will, invariably say, "Oh, yes, I've been baptised." Or, "I always repent of my sins and confess them to God." Or, "I keep the commandments." Or, "I forgive others so I can be forgiven." On and on, we see the tells everyday right here on the forum. Most professing Christians today only know the Kingdom gospel. It's sad.

It's satan's work that Paul's letters have been shoved to the back burner, hardly, if ever, have people even heard what he's written.
Paul wrote this..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
 

Hoping

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Banned
You don't have a clue about anything, do you?

The Jews were God's chosen people --the NATION of Israel. They were God's elect nation. Chosen.
Jesus Christ, Himself, is the Elect ONE. Those of us IN Christ are elect IN HIM.

Jesus only came to the Lost Sheep of ISRAEL. His chosen nation.
There is a HUGE difference between the PHYSICAL Kingdom on earth, and the spiritual Church of God...the body of Christ.

If you stay in your lane, you might end up "getting it".
The Jews were not grafted onto Gentiles, we were grafted onto them.
 
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