An exclusively Catholic doctrine on justification? Not on TOL

musterion

Well-known member
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,

"The process by which a sinner is made righteous, pure and holy before God."

It goes on to say how justification is obtained:

"Justification in the Catholic Tradition comes about by means of faith in Christ, and in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe. "

Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.
 
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Robert Pate

New member
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

Good article. To be justified by faith means that we are justified by Christ, Romans 3:26.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I beg your pardon . . .

Why do you think many of us call ourselves "Reformers?" Who do you think began the Protestant movement away from the errors and oppression of the RCC and her required ~works~ ?

Was it not Martin Luther who emphasized justification by faith, alone, in his teachings?

MAD has perverted this doctrine, by disrespecting the concept of holy living. You have made obedience produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit, into a supposed work, and deny such sanctified living in the name of grace.

MAD has abused the doctrine of Sanctification as badly as the RCC, by adopting the opposite extreme, IMO.
 

glorydaz

New member
I beg your pardon . . .

Why do you think many of us call ourselves "Reformers?" Who do you think began the Protestant movement away from the errors and oppression of the RCC and her required ~works~ ?

Was it not Martin Luther who emphasized justification by faith, alone, in his teachings?

MAD has perverted this doctrine, by disrespecting the concept of holy living. You have made obedience produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit, into a supposed work, and deny such sanctified living in the name of grace.

MAD has abused the doctrine of Sanctification as badly as the RCC, by adopting the opposite extreme, IMO.

That's silly. We just don't boast about what is God's work in us as if it was our own.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
That's silly. We just don't boast about what is God's work in us as if it was our own.

It is not boasting to repent, and to desire to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

It is sinful to refuse to repent, or acknowledge holy standards of lifestyle.

God's grace does not give any who profess faith in Jesus Christ, license to live apart from confession of sins and manifesting a love of His Word.

Psalm 119 reveals the heart and attitude of truly regenerated believers . . .
 

glorydaz

New member
It is not boasting to repent, and to desire to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

It is sinful to refuse to repent, or acknowledge holy standards of lifestyle.

God's grace does not give any who profess faith in Jesus Christ, license to live apart from confession of sins and manifesting a love of His Word.

Psalm 119 reveals the heart and attitude of truly regenerated believers . . .

You sound just like God's UNtruth. :think:

It merely shows you don't believe God is able to perform His good work in us.



Let me guess....you don't understand what it means to REST in the Lord, do you?

How about TRUST in Him instead of yourself?

How about believing that Christ died for all sin....perhaps you should repent of your preoccupation with sin. Careful, you might turn into a pillar of salt.
 

Truster

New member
Justification is by the trust/faith of Messiah. It is His trust in the Father's promise to justify those for whom He suffered, died and was risen.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Romans 5:1 clearly states that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


However, if we keep reading we find out more details of what that means and implies:

Justification, reconciliation, atonement, free gift, righteousnes... mean different things, but they are all related. all of them were the result of what Jesus Christ did for us. All of it is a free gift, but we must believe to receive that free gift. Is believing works? Yes, but our believing did not do the works that justified us, it was Jesus Christ's works that justified us.

Jesus Christ worked pretty hard to earn that free gift for us, seems the least we could do is "hold out our hands" to receive that gift and open it up in our minds and hearts and live accordingly

Our job, our "work" is to simply receive what Jesus Christ did for us by doing Romans 10:9

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is a free gift that we receive when are born again, are we going to open it up and appreciate it and live accordingly or complain about it?

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord God who sent His son and the lord Jesus Christ who paid for it
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
You sound just like God's UNtruth. :think:

It merely shows you don't believe God is able to perform His good work in us.



Let me guess....you don't understand what it means to REST in the Lord, do you?

How about TRUST in Him instead of yourself?

How about believing that Christ died for all sin....perhaps you should repent of your preoccupation with sin. Careful, you might turn into a pillar of salt.

I simply believe that regenerated sinners, will manifest holiness.

Not sinlessness. Nor licentiousness.

But a holy, sanctified, non-worldly, faithful, lifestyle.

I John 1:5-2:6
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I said
Faith-Works-Love (By Themselves they are only principles) But together they are righteousness.

People are trying to make a conclusion out of pieces and parts. It cant be done. Faith alone won't get you to heaven. Works alone won't get you to heaven. Love alone won't get you to heaven. That is the only conclusion.

XXX If all you have to present to God is faith, YOU ARE NOTHING.
1 Cor 13:1-2

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rom 16:26
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
(NKJ)

XXX You are saved by grace through faith. But that is NOT SALVATION. Faith only works through love.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(NKJ)


Luke 6:32-33
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
(NKJ)

xxx Some stand on faith and some stand on works and some stand on love. They are all principles, they have to be together. So many on here are argueing just one point or part of a whole. You need to understand. Faith without works or love is dead. Works without faith or love is vanity. Love without faith or works is useless. Love is NOT AN EMOTION. Love is an action.

So many are running on blind faith. They dont even know what faith is. In reality their useing trust as faith. Their different. Your faith should be in what is written, all of it. But faith alone will NOT get you to heaven. Works alone will NOT get you to heaven. Love alone will not get you to heaven. What you need is the true faith in the Word of God. If you have the true faith in the Word of God you would try your best to do the works that are in the Word. Now love is NOT a feeling but an action. And the only way to learn what Godly love is would be to do the works. That is how you learn what love is by trying to do the works. In the Word that you have put your faith in.


Rom 5:1-4
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Eph 2:18-20
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
Eph 3:12
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
(NKJ)

xxx Do you have real faith, or blind faith?? The true faith only works through love. True love is to suffer wrongfully. Your real faith only works when you are suffering wrongfully.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 1:5-6
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
(NKJ)
 

glorydaz

New member
I simply believe that regenerated sinners, will manifest holiness.

Not sinlessness. Nor licentiousness.

But a holy, sanctified, non-worldly, faithful, lifestyle.

I John 1:5-2:6

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

glorydaz

New member
Justification is by the trust/faith of Messiah. It is His trust in the Father's promise to justify those for whom He suffered, died and was risen.

Yes, the faith of Christ. His trust in the Father's promise to justify those with faith in Him.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Same sin-damaged person; new heart (spirit).

Old things (bondage to fear of death) are passed away.

All things ( love of God and His Word)are become new (alive).

As usual, you approach doctrine and the Scriptures, literally, and totally miss the spiritual implications and Truth contained therein.
 

jsanford108

New member
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I would disagree with your generalization that most on TOL share the Faith+Works doctrine (let us call it the "Catholic Justification"), there are a few. Yes, God's Truth (user) shares belief in parts of the doctrine, but not wholly. I have only encountered a few who hold this doctrine (all Catholic), and a few who posses a works centric version, commonly misapplied as "catholic version." (Usually such groups are fringe groups, like MAD)

Also, there is nothing in the Catholic Justification that disagrees with Scripture. In fact, it is supported by Scripture.

Your issue lies in your view of justification. Catholicism views justification as a process that is not complete until judgement (IE- when you die). Protestants view justification as present (IE- "if you died right now"). So really, the difference is only in viewpoint, not in definition. The difference is in the views associated with the state of the soul.

Protestants hope that Christ assumes all responsibility for their sins, whereas Catholics assume responsibility for their sins, yet trust that Christ will wipe away their sins upon repentance. Therefore, Protestants always assume they are justified, while Catholics know they are justified or in danger of damnation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

jsanford108

New member
Forgive any lack of clarity in my post; I was quite distracted during its formation. I will be happy to address any inquiries into it. Again, I apologize for any lack of clarity and well communicated doctrine.


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glorydaz

New member
Same sin-damaged person; new heart (spirit).

Old things (bondage to fear of death) are passed away.

All things ( love of God and His Word)are become new (alive).

As usual, you approach doctrine and the Scriptures, literally, and totally miss the spiritual implications and Truth contained therein.

My, you are amazing. You got all that from my posting a single verse. :chuckle:
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I would disagree with your generalization that most on TOL share the Faith+Works doctrine (let us call it the "Catholic Justification"), there are a few. Yes, God's Truth (user) shares belief in parts of the doctrine, but not wholly. I have only encountered a few who hold this doctrine (all Catholic), and a few who posses a works centric version, commonly misapplied as "catholic version." (Usually such groups are fringe groups, like MAD)

Also, there is nothing in the Catholic Justification that disagrees with Scripture. In fact, it is supported by Scripture.

Your issue lies in your view of justification. Catholicism views justification as a process that is not complete until judgement (IE- when you die). Protestants view justification as present (IE- "if you died right now"). So really, the difference is only in viewpoint, not in definition. The difference is in the views associated with the state of the soul.

Protestants hope that Christ assumes all responsibility for their sins, whereas Catholics assume responsibility for their sins, yet trust that Christ will wipe away their sins upon repentance. Therefore, Protestants always assume they are justified, while Catholics know they are justified or in danger of damnation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Protestants consider Justification forensically (legally). A once-and-all rendering of pardon under the Law accomplished by Jesus Christ on the cross.

Sanctification (holy, obedient, blessed Christian life) is progressive and distinctive work of the Holy Spirit, following legal Justification, leading to ultimate salvation upon bodily resurrection.

The RCC confuses the purpose of the two doctrines . . .
 

glorydaz

New member
A book could be written about the verse you quoted . . .

Oh, so that gives you room to assume what I don't see in the verse?

You should really try to rein in that active imagination of yours. Is that part of the workers' creed?
"Imagine not what you might be doing, but what those around you might be doing."
 
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