Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[way 2 go]

αιωνος doesn't mean perpetual, but αιωνιος does. The word αιωνιος is used very sparingly, but αιωνος is used often and is often falsely translater as ever or with 'for ever' or as 'world'. It means a precedent of time.

αιωνιος both times
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

 

[Omniskeptical]

αιωνιος both times
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

This can be interpreted And these shall go away into an everlasting punishment, but the righteous into an everlasting life. Eh?

 

[Derf]

the dead not only stand but walk the earth
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.

do you also want to redefine what life is biblically speaking ?

No. In fact, I want to stick to how the bible speaks about life and death, allowing for writer's license, euphemism, etc. Which do you think Jesus might be using in your quote?

How is death usually defined biblically? Is "spiritual death" a category the bible talks about? I did a search on the words, and most translations don't use that phrase. at all.

if you were right it would say
Rev 20:12 And I saw those who were dead, the small and the great, stand before God
but it doesn't
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God

It would only say it that way if the author was thinking it exactly that way. But the way I suggested is also saying the same thing, at least possibly.

 

[Derf]

How does that thought fit with the verse that says that both the soul and the body are destroyed in hell?

You're assuming "destroy" means to completely annihilate. If that's the case, then why were all those people that had already died resurrected? Just to be killed again?

Why do they need a destroyed (killed and decomposed) body resurrected just to have it destroyed again? Is it possible that "destroyed" means something different than "annihilated"?

 

[way 2 go]

You're assuming "destroy" means to completely annihilate. If that's the case, then why were all those people that had already died resurrected? Just to be killed again?

Why do they need a destroyed (killed and decomposed) body resurrected just to have it destroyed again? Is it possible that "destroyed" means something different than "annihilated"?

completely annihilate, no

Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

 

[Derf]

completely annihilate, no

Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

Jesus didn't distinguish between "completely" and something else. How do you know he means "not completely"?

 

[way 2 go]

No. In fact, I want to stick to how the bible speaks about life and death, allowing for writer's license, euphemism, etc. Which do you think Jesus might be using in your quote?

spiritual dead

How is death usually defined biblically?

the first death talked about in the bible was not physical it was spiritual death
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Is "spiritual death" a category the bible talks about? I did a search on the words, and most translations don't use that phrase. at all.

bible does not mention ford trucks but they exist
(or I could say trinity)

It would only say it that way if the author was thinking it exactly that way. But the way I suggested is also saying the same thing, at least possibly.

no , the point is they are dead , without the life of Christ

 

[way 2 go]

Jesus didn't distinguish between "completely" and something else. How do you know he means "not completely"?

Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

did Jesus cease to exist ? no

 

[rstrats]

So far there has not been a single scripture shown which specifically, absolutely, no question about it says - with the exception of the devil as the KJV has it - that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured 24/7 for eternity. On the contrary, as has been pointed out a number of times, scipture actually specifically says that the wages of sin is death. But for some reason there are those here who want to interpret death as meaning eternal conscious torment. For some macabre reason they have to want the unsaved to be tortured for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't or couldn't meet the supreme being's requirements nor develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being. Consequently they try to interpret scripture to support that idea when there is no scriptural reason to do so. They could just as easily interpret the punishment to be death for eternity based on the scripture that says the wages of sin is death. And the last part of the verse seems to bare that out. The righteous receive eternal life which seems to contrast that with what the unrighteous will receive, i.e., eternal non-life.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So far there has not been a single scripture shown which specifically, absolutely, no question about it says -

It's a good thing this is not the standard for determining the truth of a doctrine, otherwise no one would know anything about what the Bible says...

with the exception of the devil as the KJV has it - that the fate of the unsaved is to be tortured 24/7 for eternity.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10,14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:10,14-15&version=NKJV

Are there two different lakes of fire? or just one?

On the contrary, as has been pointed out a number of times, scipture actually specifically says that the wages of sin is death.

Yes, death. Not annihilation. Not temporary death.

But for some reason there are those here who want to interpret death as meaning

...something other than what scripture says. Such as yourself...

eternal conscious torment.

Why do you think that anything else is possible?

Do you think it cruel for God to be just?

Do you think Jesus was just muttering under his breath as he desperately cried out to His heavenly Father "If there be any other way, let this cup pass from me, but if not, Your will be done? (Speaking of His impending death, burial, and resurrection to save all of mankind from their sin?

Do you think that Jesus, having asked the above, would have died on the cross if there was any other way to save mankind from eternal separation from Him? (which is what eternal death is referring to)

For some macabre reason they have to want

There's no "want" here. There is what Scripture says, which is:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10,14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:10,14-15&version=NKJV

God said it, that settles it.

Those who did not trust in God during their life will be given the same fate as Satan.

the unsaved to be tortured

WRONG.

They will be tormented.

Not tortured.

God isn't going to walk around with a whip or bat and beat them for the rest of eternity.

The "Torture" argument from people like you is a straw man, because scripture does not say torture, it says torment. One can be in torment by one's own doing. It does not require a second or third party.

for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't or couldn't meet the supreme being's

You shouldn't mock God.

requirements

You have apparently never read Luke 12:48 nor read and understood what Paul said in Romans 2.

nor develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed

Man was created with the ability to love, and even to love God.

In other words. your argument is a straw man, because all men ALREADY HAVE the potential to be saved from being separated from God. Whether they choose to love Him or reject/hate Him is entirely up to them.

It's a choice that is made. Not a quality that is obtained.

to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I forget, are you an athiest? Is that why you're using "supreme being" rather than "God"?

Consequently they try to interpret scripture to support that idea when there is no scriptural reason to do so.

Because you say so?

They could just as easily interpret the punishment to be death for eternity based on the scripture that says the wages of sin is death. And the last part of the verse seems to bare that out. The righteous receive eternal life which seems to contrast that with what the unrighteous will receive, i.e., eternal non-life.

Death is not "non-life," at least, not in this context.

Death in this context is separation.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit.

Spiritual death is separation of man's spirit from God.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (The latter of the above.) Jesus paid the price to make it so that people do not have to be separated any longer. If one chooses to remain separated, God will honor that choice, and if they haven't changed their mind before the moment they die physically, then they will have committed to that choice.

God will not force people to be with Him for eternity if they do not want to be with Him for eternity.

 

[Derf]

Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

did Jesus cease to exist ? no

This is getting a little confusing. You responded to a response I had to genuineoriginal . My point to him was that "destroy" doesn't have to mean complete annihilation. I think you and I are in agreement on that point, but I'm not quite prepared to acknowledge the body-less existence of everybody's sentient souls.

If Jesus indeed only died in his body, do we then say He has a human soul, too? And the human soul went to Hades? Or is the body the only part of Jesus that is human? The Son of God was sentient before He was the Son of Man. The text of your passage indicates that Jesus raised Himself from the dead, meaning that he must have been sentient after the death of His body in order to bring himself back to life. I'm not sure I can comment effectively on what form Jesus was in when dead. But, as I said, Jesus is a special case--there is little indication that others can do anything on their own after death and before resurrection.

 

[way 2 go]

This is getting a little confusing. You responded to a response I had to genuineoriginal . My point to him was that "destroy" doesn't have to mean complete annihilation.

I agree, destroy doesn't mean complete annihilation.

 

[Aimiel]

According to the verse, the torment happens in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus, so this is not speaking about hell.

Revelation 14:10-11 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How does the fact that angels and Jesus being present when souls are cast into hell make it impossible to be regarding the Lake of Fire (it's at this point that the Spirit of Hell is cast in there, also)?

​

What did Jesus say happens to the people who are cast into hell?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

​ Just because He decided that the destruction by the torment of flames should last forever doesn't make it impossible for God to make it so. He described eternal conscious torment, I just take Him at His Word.

 

[Child of God]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

Although I Pray Eternal Hell Is true, it is not supported by the Bible.

There are people I would love to see in an Eternal Hell.
Scripture actually says Hell has an End.

 

[way 2 go]

Although I Pray Eternal Hell Is true, it is not supported by the Bible.

There are people I would love to see in an Eternal Hell.
Scripture actually says Hell has an End.

what bible are you reading from ?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

 

[Aimiel]

I wouldn't wish that ANYONE should suffer hell. I know it's real and there are millions there, but I don't enjoy thinking of anyone suffering.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's a good thing this is not the standard for determining the truth of a doctrine, otherwise no one would know anything about what the Bible says...

Nobody seems to be in unified agreement as to what the lake of fire is either. A bit odd considering one would have thought the magnitude of something like eternal suffering would be crystal clear.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10,14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:10,14-15&version=NKJV

Are there two different lakes of fire? or just one?

You don't believe it to be actual fire yourself do you? Don't you personally interpret it to be a condition of psychological torment, separation as opposed to physical burning etc?

Yes, death. Not annihilation. Not temporary death.

So, a state of "living" then, just an inescapable and horrible one?

Why do you think that anything else is possible?

Do you think it cruel for God to be just?

Do you think Jesus was just muttering under his breath as he desperately cried out to His heavenly Father "If there be any other way, let this cup pass from me, but if not, Your will be done? (Speaking of His impending death, burial, and resurrection to save all of mankind from their sin?

Do you think that Jesus, having asked the above, would have died on the cross if there was any other way to save mankind from eternal separation from Him? (which is what eternal death is referring to)

Why on earth do you think that anything else isn't possible? Why do you consider it to be "just" for other people to suffer for eternity? have you ever seriously questioned the doctrine that you ascribe to and by that I mean in depth, not just blithely but actually the history of how such came about and the alternatives?

There's no "want" here. There is what Scripture says, which is:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:10,14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation20:10,14-15&version=NKJV

God said it, that settles it.

Those who did not trust in God during their life will be given the same fate as Satan.

Wrong, your doctrine says it which is not the same thing at all. Same question as above.

WRONG.

They will be tormented.

Not tortured.

God isn't going to walk around with a whip or bat and beat them for the rest of eternity.

The "Torture" argument from people like you is a straw man, because scripture does not say torture, it says torment. One can be in torment by one's own doing. It does not require a second or third party.

No, he's right. If people are in a position of inescapable suffering and torment that's been imposed on them then someone or something is enforcing that. Someone who locks someone in a basement and leaves them to die doesn't have to be in that same room by way of. It's a silly and pedantic position to insist otherwise.

Man was created with the ability to love, and even to love God.

In other words. your argument is a straw man, because all men ALREADY HAVE the potential to be saved from being separated from God. Whether they choose to love Him or reject/hate Him is entirely up to them.

It's a choice that is made. Not a quality that is obtained.

Do you think that everybody who doesn't believe in God or who do but in a different one to Christianity are deliberately choosing to enter the state of eternal suffering that you believe happens in the "next realm"? There's only one actual sensible answer to that.

Death is not "non-life," at least, not in this context.

Death in this context is separation.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit.

Spiritual death is separation of man's spirit from God.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (The latter of the above.) Jesus paid the price to make it so that people do not have to be separated any longer. If one chooses to remain separated, God will honor that choice, and if they haven't changed their mind before the moment they die physically, then they will have committed to that choice.

God will not force people to be with Him for eternity if they do not want to be with Him for eternity.

Oh, but God will force people to be in a state of inescapable suffering if they don't "choose" right while on this physical plain? Not only is your position callous and dismissive, it doesn't add up. Your version of God forces people into existence with a sword hanging over their head effectively. This is the best an all powerful God could come up with?

 

[ok doser]

This is the best an all powerful God could come up with?

tell ya what buckwheat - when you become God, you can show Him how to do it better

(and no, becoming god in your own mind by rejecting God really isn't the same)

until then, take your silly whining elsewhere

 

[Aimiel]

Oh, but God will force people to be in a state of inescapable suffering if they don't "choose" right while on this physical plain? Not only is your position callous and dismissive, it doesn't add up. Your version of God forces people into existence with a sword hanging over their head effectively. This is the best an all powerful God could come up with?

God prepared hell for the devil and his angels, who rebelled against Him while in His Presence. Those who by their rejection of Truth turn their back on God buy themselves a ticket to hell. God doesn't force anyone. He would that everyone might be saved. He said:

I call Heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you: life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

He doesn't want you to choose to continue the status quo. He wants you to seek Him. He said that men would seek Him and find Him when they seek and search for Him with all of their heart. Obviously: you haven't sought Him.

 

[Arthur Brain]

[/FONT]God prepared hell for the devil and his angels, who rebelled against Him while in His Presence. Those who by their rejection of Truth turn their back on God buy themselves a ticket to hell. God doesn't force anyone. He would that everyone might be saved. He said:

I call Heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you: life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

He doesn't want you to choose to continue the status quo. He wants you to seek Him. He said that men would seek Him and find Him when they seek and search for Him with all of their heart. Obviously: you haven't sought Him.

Obviously, that's just your opinion and also irrelevant. Plenty of folk who don't believe in fundamentalist doctrines regarding hell still believe in God.