Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Derf]

Jesus' description of hell int he parable is contradicted by the rest of scriptural descriptions of what happens when a man dies.

The church father Tertullian wrote: "We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables."

You seem to want to use the parable as a source of doctrine.

Are you sure you want to use the United Church of God as a source for doctrine? They seem to take a rather low view of other denominations, and other denominations seem to take a low view of them, too. Armstrong had some ideas that weren't right.

But to your point, Tertullian has a strong argument here. Parables would seem to be more intended to strengthen a known doctrine rather than define an unknown doctrine. Yet the story of the rich man and Lazarus is used more than any other scripture as "proof" of the doctrine of the non-sleeping soul.

Your point is that other scriptures, at least up until Jesus gives that story, point to a sleeping state, or a non-conscious state. This would be more in keeping with what we would normally think of as "death", but most Christians today are entrenched in the life-during-death model. I.e., that even while we are dead (between death and resurrection), we are really alive, just without a body. If the old testament is to be trusted, we wouldn't come up with that doctrine at all. So at the time of Jesus' ministry, if the Jews were to rely only on their scripture, I would think they also would be more inclined to a soul-sleep model.

Even if the story is taken as a description of the actual place of Hades, I would suggest it could be out of time, or anachronistic, after the judgment, in terms of those that have died, even if not yet so for those still alive. And if that's the case, it can still explain why angels carried Lazarus (which doesn't fit any old testament picture), why the rich man "found himself" in Hades, and doesn't even require that Lazarus and the rich man are actually both in the same place. "Hades" might be just where the rich man is, and Lazarus might be wherever Abraham and the faithful are after judgment. And of course, after judgment, Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, so the torment makes sense at that point.

I really don't care for using the name "Abraham's Bosom" as some kind of place name. there's no warrant for it in the scripture--it would have to come from an external source. Lazarus was right there with Abraham, and thus was "in Abraham's bosom" and being comforted by Abraham. But how much were the Jews before Jesus influenced by the Greeks in this area?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Are you sure you want to use the United Church of God as a source for doctrine? They seem to take a rather low view of other denominations, and other denominations seem to take a low view of them, too. Armstrong had some ideas that weren't right.

I don't know who the United Church of God are, but the part I quoted looks valid.

But to your point, Tertullian has a strong argument here. Parables would seem to be more intended to strengthen a known doctrine rather than define an unknown doctrine. Yet the story of the rich man and Lazarus is used more than any other scripture as "proof" of the doctrine of the non-sleeping soul.

Your point is that other scriptures, at least up until Jesus gives that story, point to a sleeping state, or a non-conscious state. This would be more in keeping with what we would normally think of as "death",

Yes, the Old Testament scriptures all seem to indicate that the dead do not know anything and will remain in the grave (sheol) until the Resurrection.

but most Christians today are entrenched in the life-during-death model. I.e., that even while we are dead (between death and resurrection), we are really alive, just without a body.

I blame the Pagan religions for that belief and I blame the church of Rome for compromising Christian doctrine by adopting and Christianizing Pagan beliefs.

If the old testament is to be trusted, we wouldn't come up with that doctrine at all. So at the time of Jesus' ministry, if the Jews were to rely only on their scripture, I would think they also would be more inclined to a soul-sleep model.

Agreed.

Even if the story is taken as a description of the actual place of Hades, I would suggest it could be out of time, or anachronistic, after the judgment, in terms of those that have died, even if not yet so for those still alive. And if that's the case, it can still explain why angels carried Lazarus (which doesn't fit any old testament picture), why the rich man "found himself" in Hades, and doesn't even require that Lazarus and the rich man are actually both in the same place. "Hades" might be just where the rich man is, and Lazarus might be wherever Abraham and the faithful are after judgment. And of course, after judgment, Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, so the torment makes sense at that point.

I can't see any justification for placing the timing of the parable after the judgment, when the rich man wanted someone to go to his living relatives and warn them of his fate so they could escape it.

I really don't care for using the name "Abraham's Bosom" as some kind of place name. there's no warrant for it in the scripture--it would have to come from an external source. Lazarus was right there with Abraham, and thus was "in Abraham's bosom" and being comforted by Abraham. But how much were the Jews before Jesus influenced by the Greeks in this area?

I am sure Abraham's bosom is about Lazarus' proximity to Abraham, just like in this verse about Jesus' bosom:

John 13:23 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

 

[Derf]

I don't know who the United Church of God are, but the part I quoted looks valid.


Yes, the Old Testament scriptures all seem to indicate that the dead do not know anything and will remain in the grave (sheol) until the Resurrection.

The possibility exists that we are misinterpreting the Old Testament, but if not, then there are two remaining possibilities:
1. That the Old Testament writers didn't know what they were talking about, and it casts a pall over inerrancy of scripture.
2. That they were correct, but something changed after the texts were written.

I blame the Pagan religions for that belief and I blame the church of Rome for compromising Christian doctrine by adopting and Christianizing Pagan beliefs.

I'm not so quick to lay all the blame for it on the pagans, who shouldn't have that kind of power over the Church, or the church of Rome, who might be able to claim that kind of power over the church, and also might use that power to steer the church in the wrong direction.

I think there is some fault in the story, and thus due to Jesus Himself. But I question whether it is really a case of fault, or is it a case of my original possibility of misinterpreting scripture, this time in the New Testament.

I say this because Jesus didn't usually use examples in His parables that violated truths of nature. For instance, when He talked about a sower sowing seed, everybody understood that that's what a sower does--he sows seed. When He talked about a king and a king's subjects, the relationship between a king and his subjects was not twisted into something unrecognizable, just for the purpose of making a point.

So I'm skeptical of the idea that Jesus would use a twisted understanding of the order of things--like Hades and what happens after death--to make a point, at least without explaining more what He meant by it. It has the appearance of an untruth. That's why I made the "out of time" suggestion.

I can't see any justification for placing the timing of the parable after the judgment, when the rich man wanted someone to go to his living relatives and warn them of his fate so they could escape it.

The out of time suggestion comes from my attempt to make sense of the truthfulness of Jesus' story. All of it can be reconciled to the Old Testament view of death and Sheol, if you allow for the timing to be skewed. And the timing is not an essential part of the story, whereas the places and events are essential.

And there are a couple senses in which the timing might be skewed.
1. If God really lives in an eternal now, then Abraham and Lazarus, being eternal with Him after the resurrection, might also be living in an eternal now. I'm not a proponent of the eternal now theory, and there are difficulties that arise in other areas, if applied universally. In this case, the judgment might already be accomplished in some sense, resulting in the rich man suffering and Lazarus being comforted, while the rich man's brothers haven't yet died.
2. Abraham never admits that the rich man's brothers are still alive. Nor, since he says there's no need for someone to go back from the dead, does he admit whether it's possible for Lazarus to somehow contact the other brothers. And not ever seeing any evidence of anyone traveling back in time in the bible, not even God, we might conclude that such is impossible. So it's possible that the event occurs after the resurrection, and after the judgment, and the rich man's torment was in the lake of fire.

I'm still looking for a better explanation than those two, but I lean toward the second until I think about the reason Jesus used the name "Lazarus" in the story. This, in my mind, has the potential to pull the story out of the fictional realm, because there WAS a Lazarus who WAS sent back from the dead, and who DID give witness to the theologically rich men that I believe were Jesus' target audience for the story. And they responded how Abraham predicted--that if they didn't believe Moses and the prophets, then they also wouldn't believe if Lazarus went back from the dead. Rather, they might try to kill him again, which the pharisees did try.

I am sure Abraham's bosom is about Lazarus' proximity to Abraham, just like in this verse about Jesus' bosom:

John 13:23 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

I think that makes sense, too.

 

[Derf]

Deleted (duplicate)

 

[genuineoriginal]

The possibility exists that we are misinterpreting the Old Testament, but if not, then there are two remaining possibilities:
1. That the Old Testament writers didn't know what they were talking about, and it casts a pall over inerrancy of scripture.
2. That they were correct, but something changed after the texts were written.

I believe the writers of the Old Testament wrote what they knew, but because of changes in language and culture we are no longer able to understand it in the manner it was intended to be understood.

I'm not so quick to lay all the blame for it on the pagans, who shouldn't have that kind of power over the Church, or the church of Rome, who might be able to claim that kind of power over the church, and also might use that power to steer the church in the wrong direction.

The doctrinal writings of Augustine of Hippo are proof that it is easy to bring in beliefs a person was taught by other religions and to look at the scriptures through that distorted lens.

I think there is some fault in the story, and thus due to Jesus Himself. But I question whether it is really a case of fault, or is it a case of my original possibility of misinterpreting scripture, this time in the New Testament.

I say this because Jesus didn't usually use examples in His parables that violated truths of nature. For instance, when He talked about a sower sowing seed, everybody understood that that's what a sower does--he sows seed. When He talked about a king and a king's subjects, the relationship between a king and his subjects was not twisted into something unrecognizable, just for the purpose of making a point.

So I'm skeptical of the idea that Jesus would use a twisted understanding of the order of things--like Hades and what happens after death--to make a point, at least without explaining more what He meant by it. It has the appearance of an untruth. That's why I made the "out of time" suggestion.


The out of time suggestion comes from my attempt to make sense of the truthfulness of Jesus' story. All of it can be reconciled to the Old Testament view of death and Sheol, if you allow for the timing to be skewed. And the timing is not an essential part of the story, whereas the places and events are essential.

And there are a couple senses in which the timing might be skewed.
1. If God really lives in an eternal now, then Abraham and Lazarus, being eternal with Him after the resurrection, might also be living in an eternal now. I'm not a proponent of the eternal now theory, and there are difficulties that arise in other areas, if applied universally. In this case, the judgment might already be accomplished in some sense, resulting in the rich man suffering and Lazarus being comforted, while the rich man's brothers haven't yet died.
2. Abraham never admits that the rich man's brothers are still alive. Nor, since he says there's no need for someone to go back from the dead, does he admit whether it's possible for Lazarus to somehow contact the other brothers. And not ever seeing any evidence of anyone traveling back in time in the bible, not even God, we might conclude that such is impossible. So it's possible that the event occurs after the resurrection, and after the judgment, and the rich man's torment was in the lake of fire.

I'm still looking for a better explanation than those two, but I lean toward the second until I think about the reason Jesus used the name "Lazarus" in the story. This, in my mind, has the potential to pull the story out of the fictional realm, because there WAS a Lazarus who WAS sent back from the dead, and who DID give witness to the theologically rich men that I believe were Jesus' target audience for the story. And they responded how Abraham predicted--that if they didn't believe Moses and the prophets, then they also wouldn't believe if Lazarus went back from the dead. Rather, they might try to kill him again, which the pharisees did try.

I can't reconcile the timing of the parable with the Resurrection, so I accept the moral of the story as valid, but avoid basing doctrine on the details found in it.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I believe that what He described actually took place. Sorry, but I'll stick with Scripture. :thumb:

Amen. I too believe the account of the Lord Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus real, but, that aside, any claim of no conscious torment, if it were merely a parable, holds no water, in that Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD, is THE GOD OF TRUTH, and not the author of confusion: He does not use bad examples that would lead to false doctrines, so badly present an account that would lead to any misunderstanding of such critical realities as damnation and hell, period.

As to the Luke 16 account being a parable, it must be noted Lazarus and Abraham are named: the Lord Jesus would have to have been lying about Abraham, to use his name and claim Lazarus was received where Abraham is, and to Abraham's bosom, even, clear that Lazarus went to be near to, very much with, a living Abraham, in paradise. This is quite a specific claim, involving a real, named person. And again, God is absolute, precise truth, not the Brothers Grimm or Aesop.

This fake controversy over hell is one of the glaring examples of people believing what doctrine they want to believe, despite what God has said, hence the soul sleep of the cults, not really any hell, etc. Those are the lies.

If somebody is so spiritually dead not to understand that hell is conscious torment from these verses to follow, you could never convince me, anyway, you're a Christian, being led into all truth of the Spirit, when you're, in fact, just trying to make the God of clear scripture a liar. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There is always a whole Bible context that must not be contradicted and have true exegesis. I'd go as far as to say that, if one can't understand these verses, one can't even read. If you don't believe them, you don't believe God:

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41,46 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mark 9:42-48 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Truth is truth, and it is the truth you've been given from God you will be held accountable for. The last person you want to fool is yourself. Remember,

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Incidentally, you annihilation people? If being cast into hellfire is just being burned-up, gone, that's that, have you even once considered the saints that were burned at the stake? You somehow think they also share a similar fate of, say, Hitler? You'd have to conclude these saints, too, suffered the fate of the damned, getting consumed by the fire, despite their faith and justified innocence, by the blood of the Lord Jesus. That dog don't hunt. As the verses given above state, cut off your hand, your foot, pluck out an eye, anything better than hell: hell is far, far worse than simply death by fire. As verses state, torment, day and night. What part of that don't you understand? Is it the word torment? Maybe the word day? Night?

 

[Child of God]

what bible are you reading from ?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Apparently you have not gotten to the End of the Bible, when it says Hell and Death are cast into the Lake of fire which is the second death.

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Child of God]

I wouldn't wish that ANYONE should suffer hell. I know it's real and there are millions there, but I don't enjoy thinking of anyone suffering.

You have not met My ABuser/Rapist.

Hell, I pray there is a HELL.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus' description of hell int he parable is contradicted by the rest of scriptural descriptions of what happens when a man dies.

The church father Tertullian wrote: "We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables."

You seem to want to use the parable as a source of doctrine.

Not necessarily, though I do take the Word of The Creator of the Universe over ANY human being. I'll stick with what He wants us to know about hell, since He IS Truth! :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Amen. I too believe the account of the Lord Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus real, but, that aside, any claim of no conscious torment, if it were merely a parable, holds no water, in that Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD, is THE GOD OF TRUTH, and not the author of confusion: He does not use bad examples that would lead to false doctrines, so badly present an account that would lead to any misunderstanding of such critical realities as damnation and hell, period.

As to the Luke 16 account being a parable, it must be noted Lazarus and Abraham are named: the Lord Jesus would have to have been lying about Abraham, to use his name and claim Lazarus was received where Abraham is, and to Abraham's bosom, even, clear that Lazarus went to be near to, very much with, a living Abraham, in paradise. This is quite a specific claim, involving a real, named person. And again, God is absolute, precise truth, not the Brothers Grimm or Aesop.

This fake controversy over hell is one of the glaring examples of people believing what doctrine they want to believe, despite what God has said, hence the soul sleep of the cults, not really any hell, etc. Those are the lies.

If somebody is so spiritually dead not to understand that hell is conscious torment from these verses to follow, you could never convince me, anyway, you're a Christian, being led into all truth of the Spirit, when you're, in fact, just trying to make the God of clear scripture a liar. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There is always a whole Bible context that must not be contradicted and have true exegesis. I'd go as far as to say that, if one can't understand these verses, one can't even read. If you don't believe them, you don't believe God:

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41,46 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mark 9:42-48 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire, where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Luke 12:4-5 And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Truth is truth, and it is the truth you've been given from God you will be held accountable for. The last person you want to fool is yourself. Remember,

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil.

Thank you!!! Lovely post. I agree, wholeheartedly. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

You have not met My ABuser/Rapist.

Hell, I pray there is a HELL.

I would have to say that where the Word of God talks about us dancing in the blood of our enemies, you've hit the nail on the head.

 

[way 2 go]

Apparently you have not gotten to the End of the Bible, when it says Hell and Death are cast into the Lake of fire which is the second death.

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

the second death does not annihilate

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Thank you!!! Lovely post. I agree, wholeheartedly. :thumb:

Shocking, I tell you, just shocking! Agreement, and especially considering the plain word of God cited? This is a Christian forum. You're supposed to bicker over any and all truths! Are you running a fever?

You have a way with words, perhaps a bit unusual, "lovely" with respect to a post about hell. Then again, Christ and the truth are lovely. Anyway, you're most welcome, and thank you for the kind word, though I was only agreeing with your good and important point, in the first place. It's so important that the bottom line is the word of God, regardless what we think or feel, to trust the Holy Lord in those things we may not understand, and certainly to never refute His word.

Oh no! It dawns on me: your point important, AND true? Heavens, you are running a fever! (Nice to see those posts, all too infrequent, anymore, that aren't from that bloated, leavened lump, otherwise known as Christendom... peace...)

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

the second death does not annihilate

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And this is one of those instances of doctrine where it's impossible to understand anything different of clear and concise language, like the beast and false prophet, another verse specifying torment of those taking the mark: these are from the human race, not of the "devil and his angels" category. There must be a "don't believe your lying eyes" school of exegesis I've missed, though possibly have led a sheltered life. Thank the Lord.

 

[Child of God]

the second death does not annihilate

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I disagree with you.

When Hell and Death are OVERCOME, they no longer exist.

The devil would say they still exist.

But, the Devil, being overcome by the the total OBLIGATION of Death and Hell, would have reason to lie to you.

You are saying the Devil LIVES FOREVER.

You are incorrect.

You are Saying Hell Is ETERNAL,

You are incorrect.

You are saying the Devil is an Eternal God,

You are incorrect.

 

[Aimiel]

According to the verse, the torment happens in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus, so this is not speaking about hell.

​

Do you have a Scripture reference which designates hell as being outside God's pervue? I can quote several which state otherwise.​

What did Jesus say happens to the people who are cast into hell?

​

He said they'd be tormented in flames and that it would be better for them if they had never been born.​

How does that thought fit with the verse that says that both the soul and the body are destroyed in hell?

Just because we think of the description which was translated: "destroy," doesn't mean their flesh won't be restored instantly so that it can be burned again, though, does it? Sorry, but eternal conscious torment is the only punishment that I can think of that would 'destroy' a soul.

 

[Aimiel]

I disagree with you.

When Hell and Death are OVERCOME, they no longer exist.

The devil would say they still exist.

But, the Devil, being overcome by the the total OBLIGATION of Death and Hell, would have reason to lie to you.

You are saying the Devil LIVES FOREVER.

You are incorrect.

You are Saying Hell Is ETERNAL,

You are incorrect.

You are saying the Devil is an Eternal God,

You are incorrect.

Indeed: hell is not eternal, but the spirit, named, "Hell," will be tormented for ever and ever and the smoke of his torment will ascend for ever and ever. Where there's smoke...

 

[JudgeRightly]

I disagree with you.

No, what you disagree with is the Bible. The Bible says the lake of Fire is a place. And the verse provided by way 2 goshows that even when people are thrown into the lake of fire, they still exist.

YOU say that they are annihilated, calling God and His Word a liar.

When Hell and Death are OVERCOME, they no longer exist.

Wrong.

That's not what the Bible says.

It says "destroyed."

Destroyed is used several times in the Bible, and I'm pretty sure that not once does it mean "annihilated."

The devil would say they still exist.

Well, no, the Devil would say "You won't surely be eternally separated from God, you'll just be annihilated," just like he told Eve "You won't surely die."

Death is the wages of sin.

Death is separation.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit.
Spiritual death is separation from God.

When a person sins, they die to God, and are separated from Him. If after that they die physically, being separated from their body they are cast into Hell, to await final judgment, that judgment is death, eternal separation from the Creator God who made them.

But, the Devil, being overcome by the the total OBLIGATION of Death and Hell, would have reason to lie to you.

Have you considered the fact that A) the devil doesn't have time to lie to everyone everywhere (he's not omnipresent), and that the angels that followed him from heaven aren't numerous enough to deceive everyone in the world, meaning that not all lies come from Satan, and B) that even if the devil or one of his angels WERE to have deceived you, it wouldn't be to make God seem more merciful than He is?

You are saying the Devil LIVES FOREVER.

Yes, as do ALL created persons, angels or human.

God created eternal beings, angels and humans.

Do you understand what that entails?

That means that they cannot be destroyed.

God cannot destroy the indestructible, as it would be a logical contradiction.

You are incorrect.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You are Saying Hell Is ETERNAL,

What of it?

The Lake of Fire and Brimstone, simply put, is "the place where God is not."

When one is cast into the Lake, one is separated, for the rest of eternity, from God.

You are incorrect.

Again, saying it doesn't make it so.

You are saying the Devil is an Eternal God,

Please quote where W2G ever said such a thing.

You are incorrect.

:yawn:

 

[Derf]

The doctrinal writings of Augustine of Hippo are proof that it is easy to bring in beliefs a person was taught by other religions and to look at the scriptures through that distorted lens.

Perhaps, but many seem to believe the picture of death and Hades given by Jesus in the story of Lazarus was commonly held in His day by the Jews. And if so, Jesus' using that depiction would reinforce that belief. Jesus didn't seem to be one to reinforce false beliefs.