ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
well, no
it's scripture
God's Word
God's Word which you spit on
because you're controlled by satan
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
well, no
it's scripture
God's Word
God's Word which you spit on
because you're controlled by satan
Aimiel
Well-known member
Many people in hell wish they had paid more attention to God's stern warnings.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You don't know anything of the sort.
genuineoriginal
New member
Do you have any evidence that "destroy" means something different than "annihilate"?
Synonyms for destroy:
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The Bible does not state why God there will be a final judgment, but the Bible says that it will happen.
| Ecclesiastes 12:14 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. |
genuineoriginal
New member
The verses I quoted are Revelation 14:10-11, which is referring tot he time when the vials of the wrath of God are poured upon the earth before the battle at Armageddon, not the time of the Judgment when sinners are cast into the lake of fire.
Derf
Well-known member
[Lev 26:44 KJV] And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God.
Why does God need to destroy something "utterly"? If "destroy" means to annihilate, what does "destroy utterly" mean? If "annihilate" is the most destruction one can experience, then we should probably assign "destroy utterly" to equal "annihilate", and then "destroy" would be something less than "annihilate". There's your evidence.
But I am a people pleaser, so I will give double the value with another example:
[Deu 4:26 KJV] I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong [your] days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
[Deu 4:27 KJV] And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
In vs 26, God says "you shall utterly be destroyed", then He describes what He means by "utter destruction" in vs 27: scatter among the heathens, few in number. Remember this is the more powerful "utter" destruction, so even the first example of "utter destruction" means to annihilate. So now, we have to reverse course a bit and assign "destroy utterly" to something that is less than "annihilate", since "annihilate" would have to mean "zero in number remaining", and God is saying "destroy utterly" means "few in number remaining", and then "destroy" would be in a tier that is much less than "annihilate", maybe "quite a few remaining".
Yes, but does God bring every work into judgment twice????
What is the judgment for sin? Death, right? Is it a different death for every sin? The wages of sin is death, singular, not deaths, plural. So one death is the judgment for sin and when we die, we receive our wages. Everybody is even-steven. Until God raises someone from the dead. Now there's a disconnect. Now the sin is past and the judgment (death) is past, but God is judging again, and judging someone who can be hurt by His judgment--someone who is alive (resurrected).
Why?
genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to be trying to use the translation from a single Hebrew word to invalidate the translation of a Greek word.
to destroy them utterly h3615 כָּלָה kalah
to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent
to destroy g622 ἀπολέσαι ἀπόλλυμι apollymi
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
Both the Hebrew word and the Greek word mean the same thing, even though the translators added extra words to the translation of the Hebrew word.
Derf
Well-known member
Hmmm. I'm pretty sure your question was in English. But since I handled the stronger English phrase "destroy utterly", I was thinking you would be happy. Are you saying the English translators were wrong to use "destroy utterly" for that Hebrew word and only "destroy" for the Greek word? Then you should take it up with them, not me.
My point, which apparently was pretty strongly received by you, since you obfuscated, was that even the more serious destruction was NOT annihilation.
And I'm also pretty sure you said "any" examples. Not just the examples you approve of.
genuineoriginal
New member
The Bible says that there is a day of judgment coming.
| 2 Peter 2:9 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: |
The Bible says that the judgment comes after we die
| Hebrews 9:27 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: |
Derf
Well-known member
I'm not arguing with you -- but you made my point for me. It is appointed once to die, and after that comes judgment.
Why is it appointed to die?
genuineoriginal
New member
The curse of mortality is for the present age due to Adam's sin.
| Romans 5:12 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: |
The judgment is to determine who God will allow to have eternal life in the world to come.
| Mark 10:30 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. |
The day of Judgment is when the Lord divides mankind between those righteous who serve Him and those wicked who do not serve Him.
Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. |
Derf
Well-known member
Then the wages of sin isn't death?
genuineoriginal
New member
I did not even suggest that, how did you get there?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Either way, the lost are tormented in hell before the final judgment when they're cast into the Lake of Fire, where their continual punishment is eternal. There's really no difference between what they suffer in hell and what they suffer in the Lake of Fire, merely a change in geography. The new earth will not have hell beneath. The Lake of Fire is separated from the New Heaven and New Earth.
genuineoriginal
New member
Sheol is the Hebrew word for grave.
The dead go to the grave and know nothing until the Resurrection.
Hel is the name of the Norse goddess of the underworld where the dead live also called Hel.
The word Hel sounded enough like Sheol that the word replaced Sheol and the meaning shifted from the grave to meaning the underworld where the dead live.
The Christian myths about hell are just the Greek myths about Tartarus given Christian names (Hades became Satan, Tartarus became Hell, Hades/Satan tortures the wicked in Tartarus/Hell as punishment for their sins).
I do not accept the Greek/Christian myths about Hell because they contradict the Bible teaching about Sheol.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I honestly don't see where our current notions about hell are contradicted by Jesus' description of hell in His parable. I don't believe that He was joking around or speaking of a 'fictional' torment that was taking place. I believe that what He described actually took place. Sorry, but I'll stick with Scripture. :thumb:
genuineoriginal
New member
Jesus' description of hell int he parable is contradicted by the rest of scriptural descriptions of what happens when a man dies.
The church father Tertullian wrote: "We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables."
You seem to want to use the parable as a source of doctrine.
| https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...eaven-and-hell When we look at this account in light of other scriptures and in its historical context, it becomes apparent that this is an allegory, a familiar story of the time that Jesus uses to point out a spiritual lesson to those who knew the law but did not keep it. It was never intended to be understood literally. Bible language expert Dr. Lawrence Richards, in discussing this passage in The Victor Bible Background Commentary: New Testament, explains that Jesus used contemporary Jewish thought about the afterlife (which by this time was influenced by pagan mythology) to point out a spiritual lesson about how we view and treat others. In this view of the afterlife, Hades, the abode of the dead, was “thought to be divided into two compartments” and “conversations could be held between persons” in the abode of the righteous and those in the abode of the unrighteous. “Jewish writings also picture the first as a verdant land with sweet waters welling up from numerous springs,” separated from the second, which was described as a parched and dry land. These elements show up in Christ’s allegory. |
Derf
Well-known member
You said this: "The curse of mortality is for the present age due to Adam's sin."
Are you saying that death is only due to Adam's sin, and not due in any amount to our own?
genuineoriginal
New member
If we had access to the tree of life, we would live for ever, according to scripture.
| Genesis 3:22-24 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. |
Whether we are righteous or wicked, we still end up in the grave in this world.
| Ecclesiastes 8:14 14 There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity. |
Everlasting life is only found in the world to come, and is only for those that seek the kingdom of God.
| Luke 18:29-30 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. |
The people thrown into the lake of fire are burned up and are destroyed
| Matthew 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. |