Theology Club: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

[Jerry Shugart]

they had to keep the law

Not for salvation, they didn't.

Here is what the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the Law in the past dispensation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).​

We can see that same truth here, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words spoken to a woman:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

its God showing mercy because David is repentant

No, David received mercy and his sins were not repented unto him because of his faith:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

Mat_6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,
Mat_6:15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

is this law or grace ?

The words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 6:14-15 in regard to forgiveness of sins are about to the same forgiveness spoken of here, which is for fellowship with the Lord and not for salvation:

"...our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ...If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).​

If the Jewish believers would not forgive others then they would be walking in darkness, their fellowship with the Lord would be interrupted and that sin would remain unforgiven. But as soon as they "judged themselves" by confessing that sin then that sin would be forgiven them and they would be restored to fellowship with the Lord.

 

[Nick M]

Oh. Does he think he can do what he wants with them because they're non elect?

That was a sarcastic comment at him being anarchist/libertarian.

 

[glorydaz]

No, David received mercy and his sins were not repented unto him because of his faith:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

The words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 6:14-15 in regard to forgiveness of sins are about to the same forgiveness spoken of here, which is for fellowship with the Lord and not for salvation:

"...our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ...If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).​

If the Jewish believers would not forgive others then they would be walking in darkness, their fellowship with the Lord would be interrupted and that sin would remain unforgiven. But as soon as they "judged themselves" by confessing that sin then that sin would be forgiven them and they would be restored to fellowship with the Lord.

So, if they have to confess their sin in order for their sin to be forgiven, that's salvation by works. It's what Jason preaches. That's the Law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, if they have to confess their sin in order for their sin to be forgiven, that's salvation by works. It's what Jason preaches. That's the Law.

As the context shows, it is not salvation that is in view but instead fellowship.

 

[glorydaz]

As the context shows, it is not salvation that is in view but instead fellowship.

I disagree with you. John is talking about those who claim to have fellowship with God, but have not come into the LIGHT....thus denying Jesus (the TRUE LIGHT). It's why they "walk in darkness" even until now.

1 John 1:3-6
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I disagree with you. John is talking about those who claim to have fellowship with God, but have not come into the LIGHT....thus denying Jesus (the TRUE LIGHT). It's why they "walk in darkness" even until now.

He is talking about those who are in the Body of Christ here:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).​

Here the Apostle John uses the pronouns "we" and "us" and according to you those pronouns refer to those not in the Body of Christ and those who are not saved.

However, John would never in a million years include himself with unbelievers. He was not an unbeliever so your idea that the pronouns "we" and "us" are referring to unbelievers is ridiculous!

The epistles will be searched in vain where any author of any of the epistles includes themselves among unbelievers. And previously you were given a chance to provide any evidence where any author of the epistles ever included themselves among a group of unbelievers.

You argument is ridiculous and only serves to prove that you have no other answer to the points which I made at 1 John 1:9.

 

[intojoy]

He is talking about those who are in the Body of Christ here:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).​

Here the Apostle John uses the pronouns "we" and "us" and according to you those pronouns refer to those not in the Body of Christ and those who are not saved.



However, John would never in a million years include himself with unbelievers. He was not an unbeliever so your idea that the pronouns "we" and "us" are referring to unbelievers is ridiculous!



The epistles will be searched in vain where any author of any of the epistles includes themselves among unbelievers. And previously you were given a chance to provide any evidence where any author of the epistles ever included themselves among a group of unbelievers.



You argument is ridiculous and only serves to prove that you have no other answer to the points which I made at 1 John 1:9.

Yes SalmonCruncher "we" "us" you eat too much fish oil...

 

[way 2 go]

they had to keep the law

Not for salvation, they didn't.

show me where Jesus did away with the law ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

show me where Jesus did away with the law ?

I already showed you that the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they believed:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:25).

Besides that, the Lord Jesus said the following about all those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

They were saved by faith and faith alone, just as we are. They also enjoyed eternal security, just like we do,

 

[way 2 go]

Mat_23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Mat_7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


so he didn't do away with the law and works in the kingdom

 

[Nick M]

1 John is the circumcision, and not Paul's gospel and is irrelevant to the saints.

 

[glorydaz]

As the context shows, it is not salvation that is in view but instead fellowship.

This verse is speaking of those who walk in darkness....nothing to do with fellowship, but a false claim. IF WE SAY means a person is making a claim....it's only a claim. NO ONE walks in darkness once they have the LIGHT OF LIFE.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: ​

Here we see salvation....we are children of light, and our fellowship is with the TRUE LIGHT of God, Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:8
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.​

 

[glorydaz]

He is talking about those who are in the Body of Christ here:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:3,6,9).​

Here the Apostle John uses the pronouns "we" and "us" and according to you those pronouns refer to those not in the Body of Christ and those who are not saved.

However, John would never in a million years include himself with unbelievers. He was not an unbeliever so your idea that the pronouns "we" and "us" are referring to unbelievers is ridiculous!

The epistles will be searched in vain where any author of any of the epistles includes themselves among unbelievers. And previously you were given a chance to provide any evidence where any author of the epistles ever included themselves among a group of unbelievers.

You argument is ridiculous and only serves to prove that you have no other answer to the points which I made at 1 John 1:9.

John is using the "royal" we, as I've explained before. And it's not talking about the body of Christ at all, since we are never told to confess our sins for salvation. We are to confess Jesus as Lord and believe He died and rose again. You are trying to make confession of sins a condition of salvation, which would make salvation a work of man.

You're correct, though, we will never agree on this one....call it "ridiculous" to your hearts content. You're still wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

1 John is the circumcision, and not Paul's gospel and is irrelevant to the saints.

Ah, which must be why Paul never tells us to confess our sins in order to have them forgiven. Correct?

 

[Nick M]

Ah, which must be why Paul never tells us to confess our sins in order to have them forgiven. Correct?

He says believe his gospel to be saved. Or am I missing something?

It would be wrong to not forgive somebody who did us harm, if that person has repented for what they did. And maybe they even made up for it on their own. During the dispensation of grace, you could not forgive and hold a grudge. Doesn't matter. He died for my sin and my failures. That isn't what is right, but changes nothing in terms of having the righteousness of Christ.

It is very obvious to me there are two sets of standards for righteousness in the Bible. One is what God gave Israel, the other is what God gave Paul for us.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

so he didn't do away with the law and works in the kingdom

I can see that the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24 mean nothing to you since it does not match your ideas.

But what about David? He lived under the law but Paul makes it plain that he was saved apart from works:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John is using the "royal" we, as I've explained before.

You just made up a ridiculous concept to a so-called "royal" we. You are unable to give at least one example from the Bible where any author of any epistles used a pronoun that identified himself as an unbeliever.

Your silly idea is laughable, just as is your idea that you have not sinned since you were saved.

And it's not talking about the body of Christ at all, since we are never told to confess our sins for salvation.

When we confess our sins we are judging ourselves. And here is what Paul has to say about that:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).​

How can anyone judge themselves without acknowledging or confessing his sins?

It is impossible.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 John is the circumcision, and not Paul's gospel and is irrelevant to the saints.

Those who received John's epistle were expecting to be made like the Lord Jesus at the rapture and that will happen only to those in the Body of Christ:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

That is exactly what will happen to only those who are in the Body of Christ:

" For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).​

It is very obvious to me there are two sets of standards for righteousness in the Bible. One is what God gave Israel, the other is what God gave Paul for us.

David lived under the law and he was saved exactly the same way that we are:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).​

Here we see that both those under the law and those who are not are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[Nick M]

But what about David? He lived under the law but Paul makes it plain that he was saved apart from works:

And King Saul?