ECT What does 1 Tim. 2:12-14 really mean to us?

0scar

New member
The reason I ask the question is at my local church, which seems pretty solid in most doctrines that I hold to. But they have a female Sunday school teacher that teaches the men as well. She does an OK job but I am not sure how I feel about it. I feel it is wrong somehow, but wasn't sure if I was just reading too much into the verses. I know that a woman should not be a pastor but was not totally sure about this situation. I know if it were up to me the church would lean toward the right side of conservative just to be safe.

my personal opinion.

in that specific case it semms to me that she is not actually teaching. probably she is just dictating the lessons. she probably limit herself to repeat the doctrine and teachings that she or any teacher has to give in sunday school.
i found it different to a pastor or a person that it is sharing the own interpretation and preaching by himself. to open a book and repeat it in public is not a big deal it is not aactualy teaching, or teaching in the sence Paul is meaning.
 

0scar

New member
Lets not avoid the plain and simple truth

Should a woman who knows more of the truth teach the man who some think should be the pastor according to 1Tim 2:12-14 KJV, or should she "be silent" in the church, and allow the man to teach the congregation even though she knows what he teaches is nothing more than false doctrines that are not approved of by God. (BTW, all false doctrines come from Satan, including the traditions of men no matter how much they are already accepted in the church)

Corinthians

Any christian has the possibility to staand up and speak; while the other has to silence and give him/her the oportunity to express him7herself.
In case of false doctrine, the right became an obligation. every christian has to opose to what beleive to be false doctrine.
 

vfirestormv

New member
Some folks need to start being honest with themselves...... if this is possible here on TOL ???

A simple hypothetical question should separate the sheep from the goats

#1 John Smith Pastor means well and believes that Jesus as the Son of God died for our sins and was resurrected unto the right hand of the Father....... Everything else he thinks about the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is wrong and is the opposite of the truth of God's Holy Word.

#2 MarySue moves into town who too "believes Jesus as the Son of God died for our sins and was resurrected unto the right hand of the Father". However, the rest of her knowledge of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation including the necessary knowledge of the foundational doctrines as listed in Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV is the absolute truth, and everything she would teach you and the rest of the church would be no different from what either Jesus or any of the Apostles would teach you should they appear today in your church to teach you the truth about God and His plan for the Church, mankind, and for you.

I am not going to ask who you would rather hear teach on Sunday, (I would be afraid to hear the answers) however, instead who do you think God would rather teach the Bible and the mysteries of Godliness to you on Sunday?

Would God approve of the above man who is clueless about most of the Bible, or would God approve of the woman teaching you who knows all of the absolute God approved truths about all of the Bible?

Anyone who does not chose the woman has not only missed the message of Paul and why he sees a difference between the "male and the female", they will remain clueless about the mysteries of Godliness

That should not be the only choice though. If there is another man able to preach, he should be the one to do it. If none is found within the Church, maybe the woman should teach until a suitable pastor is found, but she should not assume the role of the pastor. But really I don't even think she should do it then. They should all get together and pray that God would send them a man that is able to pastor them. This I know is clear in the scripture. My confusion is with that of teaching Sunday school.

To say God would rather the woman to be a pastor rather than the false pastor is reading your own biases into scripture. God would rather that they find another suitable man to be the pastor.
And there are plenty out there. Elijah prayed and told God he was the only one left, God told him that He had reserved seven thousand that had not bowed the knee to Baal. There is always another man that is able to pastor.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I am none of these. What is the text saying then?

Paul is saying that in a spiritual context we must not discriminate with regard to ethnicity, gender or social standing. Paul said, "For ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi , and are you saying that Jesus was a RACIST in Matt 10:5 and 6 when He told His disciple to ONLY go to the House of Israel , but DON'T go to the Gentiles or the Samaritians ??::bang::bang:

To whom did God send Jesus? God's directive was familial in nature and scope, not racial.

Israel is defined as God's firstborn. It was to Israel that God sent Moses and later he sent Jesus.
 

God's Truth

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To whom did God send Jesus? God's directive was familial in nature and scope, not racial.

Israel is defined as God's firstborn. It was to Israel that God sent Moses and later he sent Jesus.

All Israelites were blood related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 

Gurucam

New member
Are they members of the Body of Christ ? If not, who cares ? And if so, see 1 Timothy 2:12-14.

There are no other limits or restrictions on women in the Body of Christ by-the-by.

Clearly that instruction is only for those women who are followers of Jesus but are not in 'in Christ. It is an instruction in the KJV N.T. coming from Jesus.

How is that possible? It is possible because there are two presentations of Jesus. One is Jesus in a physical body , in this presentation Jesus is the son of man. And the other is Jesus in only His Spirit (body) in this presentation Jesus is the Son of God.

The instruction in question is for women who follows the things which Jesus delivered when he was in a physical body on earth i.e. Jesus, the son of man.

After Jesus' crucifixion, He rose to spirit heaven only in his Spirit body. In this presentation Jesus is the Son of God. Women who follow Jesus in this Spirit presentation and are led by the Spirit of Jesus become children of God and 'in Christ'. They differs in no way from men and from Jesus. The instruction in question does not apply to them.

Indeed the KJV N.T. records two sets of instructions from Jesus for two different kinds of people:

1.) For one set, Jesus instructed, let the dead bury their dead. They are called to follow the physical Jesus who is the son of man. This is the temporal Jesus.

2.) For another set, Jesus instructed, follow me in my regenerated Spirit. These are the ones called to be Christians. They are called to follow Jesus, the son of God, i.e. Jesus in only His Spirit body. This is the eternal Jesus.

1.) Therefore one set (#1.) will be buried with their dead physical bodies by their dead counterparts and they will wait in the earth for the day of the lord Jesus.

2.) The other set (#2.) will achieve live intuitive communion with Jesus as he is now, in His regenerated Spirit whiles they live. And they will be led into all their works by this Spirit.

This will result in they being children of God and in Christ. They will differ in no way from Jesus. When they die on earth they will not be buried with their dead physical body. Instead when they die they will rise in their own spirit bodies, in no more than a few day (like Jesus) to be like angels in heaven.

The instruction in question is for the first set of women. The ones who follow the physical Jesus.
 
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Gurucam

New member
If there is a man available who is able to teach another man the truth, then let the man teach the man. If there is no man to teach the man, then the woman should teach the man.

No man or woman can teach any one the Truth.

All Truth comes only from the Spirit of Truth.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
No, what does 1 Tim. 2:12-14 say?

It says that in the context of marriage the wife is not to usurp authority over her husband.

Woman is not the only translation of gune and verse 13 establishes a context of marriage.
 

God's Truth

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No man or woman can teach any one the Truth.

You do not say what the scriptures say.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 1:13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
 

Gurucam

New member
You do not say what the scriptures say.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 1:13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Jesus confirmed that only the disciples were given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. Jesus delivered these mysteries to only the disciples in very private session among only them.

The final mystery which Jesus delivered to the disciples in a private session among only them was that All Truth comes only from the Spirit of Truth and he had to go away by being crucified and rising to heaven in order for the Spirit of Truth to come among them (to bring All Truth).

This means that nothing which Jesus delivered in physically spoken and physically written words while he was a man on earth is Truth. At best those were stories about the Truth and direction as to where humans can get Truth. Those deliveries were not the Truth because All Truth comes only from the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Truth was made available only after Jesus was crucified and rose to heaven.

The written scriptures are not the Spirit of Truth.Therefore the written scriptures are not the Truth and cannot bring Truth.

Jesus is the Truth. Therefore the Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of Truth. And Jesus, the son of man, had to die (loose his physical body) in order for Jesus, the Son of God, to rise and be available to humans in only His Spirit body, as the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Jesus.

In order to get Truth, each human must connect directly and intuitively to the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Jesus, from their own individual spirits, as Paul did. Spiritual things must be detected and/or discerned through (the intuitive faculties of) our spirit body or inward man. Our natural man or physical body (i.e. the faculties of our physical body) cannot detect and/or discern spiritual things.

Therefore Truth (which can and do come only from the Spirit of Truth) cannot be delivered in physically spoken or physically written words. All Truth are delivered only intuitively when each person connect directly with the living Spirit of Jesus through each of their own heart or spirit.

This means that one will not get Truth by physically reading or physically hearing the written scriptures. Only faith (and not Truth) comes from physically reading and/or physically hearing the written scriptures.
 
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intojoy

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1 Timothy 2:12-14 (KJV)
(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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WHY?
(13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

(14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT MADE BY PAUL - NOTHING ABOUT HISTORICAL REASONING NOR ANYTHING TO DO WITH CULTURE.

So do you think this was just for this Church that may have been having problems with women that were unlearned teaching? Or do you feel this is universal for the Churches?

Do you feel this also goes for women teaching men in Sunday School, or Bible study?

What are your thoughts?
 

vfirestormv

New member
It says that in the context of marriage the wife is not to usurp authority over her husband.

Woman is not the only translation of gune and verse 13 establishes a context of marriage.

So in Chapter one, he is teaching about men teaching sound doctrine to others. In Chapter three he is teaching about the offices within the Church. But in chapter two he switches to the context of marriage?
And you do know that these books were written without chapters and verses don't you? For him to switch in the middle of a letter to a different context and then right back to the same context seems rather odd.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
And you do know that these books were written without chapters and verses don't you?

In chapter 3 Paul said, "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre..."

In Romans 16 Paul said, "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea..."

The word "servant" is diakonos in the Greek.

Phoebe was a deacon in the church of God.
 
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