toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will i

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Revelation 19:1-10 describes event in Heaven. The Bride has come and the saints have stood at the judgement seat of Christ. The Bride (the Church) is in fine white linen in Heaven.

Revelation 19:11-21 describe the second coming and is on earth and describes other events.

Do you have anything to say about the Scripture I posted in my previous post.

In Rev 18 the saints are to rejoice over the judgment of Babylon. "After the things" (described nicely in Rev 18:20-24) comes chapter 19.

The focus in Rev 19:1–8 is on the saints assembled, praising God at the consummation of history for the judgment of Babylon.

Revelation 19:7-10 relate to the coming judgment of Babylon, the establishment of God's reign as the basis for and the leading to the righteous vindication and union of Christ with his people, for which they glorify God.


In Revelation 19:11-16 the sovereignty if Christ is revealed along with Christ's faithful fulfillment of His promise to judge evil through defeat of the forces of wickedness at the end of history.



The next two verses, Revelation 19:18-20 find an angel announcing the destruction of the last enemy.


Then in Revelation 19:19-21, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the followers of the same are defeated at the end of history.




And before you ask about Chapter 20 and how it relates to the preceding, let me state that Revelation 20:1-6 has the course of the church age in view, and the temporal context precedes the final judgment, which Chapters 17-19 have been narrating. Moreover, Revelation 20:7-15 is a recapitulation of the final judgment already described in Revelation 19:11-21. ;)


I am just not seeing what you are seeing in the verses in question.


AMR


 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Christ does not come at the rapture; we are caught up to be with Him. Why doesn't anyone who wants to argue against it understand that?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Christ does not come at the rapture; we are caught up to be with Him. Why doesn't anyone who wants to argue against it understand that?

Right!
His first coming was to earth.
When He left earth, the messengers said He would come back in the same manner.
His second coming will be to earth.

When He 'catches up/raptures' His Church, He does not come to earth.
 

sky.

BANNED
Banned
In Rev 18 the saints are to rejoice over the judgment of Babylon. "After the things" (described nicely in Rev 18:20-24) comes chapter 19.

The focus in Rev 19:1–8 is on the saints assembled, praising God at the consummation of history for the judgment of Babylon.

Revelation 19:7-10 relate to the coming judgment of Babylon, the establishment of God's reign as the basis for and the leading to the righteous vindication and union of Christ with his people, for which they glorify God.


In Revelation 19:11-16 the sovereignty if Christ is revealed along with Christ's faithful fulfillment of His promise to judge evil through defeat of the forces of wickedness at the end of history.



The next two verses, Revelation 19:18-20 find an angel announcing the destruction of the last enemy.


Then in Revelation 19:19-21, the Beast, the False Prophet, and the followers of the same are defeated at the end of history.




And before you ask about Chapter 20 and how it relates to the preceding, let me state that Revelation 20:1-6 has the course of the church age in view, and the temporal context precedes the final judgment, which Chapters 17-19 have been narrating. Moreover, Revelation 20:7-15 is a recapitulation of the final judgment already described in Revelation 19:11-21. ;)


I am just not seeing what you are seeing in the verses in question.


AMR



You really only need to read Revelation 19:8-9 to get the picture that the bride of Christ the Church is in heaven dressed in fine linen.

Revelation 19:11-21 is the second coming. Is different and on earth.

Thanks for taking the time you did a lot more work in your post then there is in the Scripture. ; )
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Right!
His first coming was to earth.
When He left earth, the messengers said He would come back in the same manner.
His second coming will be to earth.

When He 'catches up/raptures' His Church, He does not come to earth.
:thumb:
 

touched

New member
If you interpret time times and half of time as a mathematical equation and you use the name of his number and the number of his days as a basis . you can come up with the figure 2331 but there are variables due to the uncertainty of the origins and definitions given concerning BC and AD and when the promises were made concerning the reconciliation though we may never know the day or the hour I think this is about as close as we can get concerning evidences and fulfillment of prophesy . My best educated guess
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
How will the Roman soldiers that pierced Him almost 2,000 years ago see Him?

Where are these Roman soldiers right now?

They will not see Him.

Those who pierce Christ in our future days will see Him.

ev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Did all the kindreds of the earth wail because of Him in 70AD??

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Right!
His first coming was to earth.
When He left earth, the messengers said He would come back in the same manner.
His second coming will be to earth.

When He 'catches up/raptures' His Church, He does not come to earth.

Christ returns to the clouds of the earth, resurrects and raises the saints to be with Him, when also the Kingdom of the earth becomes ruled over by the Kingdom of God beginning with the vials of wrath, which end at Armageddon when the saints come down from the clouds (air, heaven, not the Heaven.)

This is why the wicked are punished in the vials in the presence of Christ and the Holy Angels. (Rev. 14 promise)

The place of Christs presence during the vials--

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.


Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

Chronologically verses 16 and 17 are between verses 7 and 8.

Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.


The 7th vial, armageddon event--(Ps 18:12 on)

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

LA


Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 

ThePresbyteers

New member
...]toldailytopic: The rapture. Do you believe it will happen? If so, when and how will it happen?.

I read that God came in the clouds 5 times and Jesus came at birth and 70Ad from an end time book. Jesus is Lord, right?
I beleive, ~today~ that Jesus came many times and comes whenever He wants to come.
I'm waiting to see what He will do next time.

christinclouds-tn.jpg
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
When He 'catches up/raptures' His Church, He does not come to earth.

Here are the verses you "rapture" adherents use:

(1 Thess 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(2 Thess 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Matt 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Luke 21:27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Yet you guys say He doesn't come to earth.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
They will not see Him.

Those who pierce Christ in our future days will see Him.

ev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

LA

It says "they also which pierced him". "Pierced Him" is (past tense)

Did all the kindreds of the earth wail because of Him in 70AD??

How do all the kindreds of the earth wail because of Him with a secret rapture?
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I believe the rapture and the second coming are two different events.

They are. The great and awsome day of the Lord, the things spoken by the prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ have nothing to do with the departure of the church revealed by Paul. The departure of the church is found nowhere but in Paul's letters, given to him directly by the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Here are the verses you "rapture" adherents use:

(1 Thess 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(2 Thess 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Matt 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Luke 21:27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Yet you guys say He doesn't come to earth.

Matt 24 and Luke 21 do not concern the gathering/rapture of the Church.
They do refer to His second coming to earth.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Christ returns to the clouds of the earth, resurrects and raises the saints to be with Him, when also the Kingdom of the earth becomes ruled over by the Kingdom of God beginning with the vials of wrath, which end at Armageddon when the saints come down from the clouds (air, heaven, not the Heaven.)

This is why the wicked are punished in the vials in the presence of Christ and the Holy Angels. (Rev. 14 promise)

The place of Christs presence during the vials--

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.


Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

Chronologically verses 16 and 17 are between verses 7 and 8.

Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
Psa 18:17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.


The 7th vial, armageddon event--(Ps 18:12 on)

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

LA


Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Though I understand many of these same verses to refer to the Second Coming, you blend and homogenize the Church and Israel. I cannot do that. In order to do it, one must retroactively force the Church into the OT verses. These verses concern Jacob/Israel....not the church.
Also, the seventieth week of Daniel(Rev 6-18) concerns National Israel....not the Church. The Church is seen in Rev 19 returning to earth with Christ.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Here are the verses you "rapture" adherents use:

(1 Thess 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(2 Thess 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That doesn't say he comes back. When he comes back he will rule from Jerusalem.

(Matt 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Luke 21:27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Yet you guys say He doesn't come to earth.

This is when he comes to rule. The departure of the church is not mentioned outside of Paul, as you know, and have known. Yet you continue to say these things. You don't have bad theology, you are a pervert trying to steer people from the faith.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That doesn't say he comes back. When he comes back he will rule from Jerusalem.

Here is what 2 Thess 2 says:

(2 Thess 2:1-4) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

If "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is the rapture (as you claim), then a few things have to happen first according to the above passage

1) a rebellion has to occur

2) a man of lawlessness has to be revealed

3) the man of lawlessness has to oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped

4) the man of lawlessness has to set himself up in God's temple

5) the man of lawlessness has to proclaim himself to be God.

So, wouldn't that mean that a third temple has to be built before your so called "rapture" can happen?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Matt 24 and Luke 21 do not concern the gathering/rapture of the Church.
They do refer to His second coming to earth.

This means that you are saying that "the son of man coming" is different then "the coming of the Lord"?
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Here is what 2 Thess 2 says:

(2 Thess 2:1-4) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

That says nothing about coming and ruling from Jerusalem. He will not come to the earth, we go to him. And your translation is very wrong, but I won't hold that against you.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
This means that you are saying that "the son of man coming" is different then "the coming of the Lord"?

If you believe that the use of the word 'erchomai' always refers to the same event, then this verse also refers to the Second Coming:

Joh_11:20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.

Actually, whether 'erchomai' or 'parousia', Christ's Second Coming is not one event, but a series of events.
 

andyc

New member
Here are the verses you "rapture" adherents use:

(1 Thess 4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(2 Thess 2:1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Matt 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Luke 21:27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Yet you guys say He doesn't come to earth.

Yup

They have to fiddle it around a bit here ;)
 
Top