toldailytopic: If you voted for Obama, do you regret it?

[annabenedetti]

How do you reconcile voting for McCain given both his stand on abortion and your apparent view that the president impacts the issue?

I followed somewhat the conversation between several posters here about whether someone voted for a baby killer or not.

I have a problem with that particular line of thinking, and I think it has been used with ill effect by both sides here.

 

[Town Heretic]

I followed somewhat the conversation between several posters here about whether someone voted for a baby killer or not.

I have a problem with that particular line of thinking, and I think it has been used with ill effect by both sides here.

I think it's a stupid approach, but it's the way Chrysostom has framed his support. And given his easy willingness to call other people baby killers because they support any democrat, I thought it was a reasonable challenge.

 

[chrysostom]

I followed somewhat the conversation between several posters here about whether someone voted for a baby killer or not.

I have a problem with that particular line of thinking, and I think it has been used with ill effect by both sides here.

what would you call someone who supports an organization that is keeping abortion legal?

 

[annabenedetti]

bigbang123: Everyone knows by now what a disaster Romneycare is. Trying to compare it with Obamacare doesn't do your argument any favors.

 

[Town Heretic]

what would you call someone who supports an organization that is keeping abortion legal?

An officer of the court? lain: See how silly that notion of yours is? But that's where the issue rests until public sentiment is sufficiently engaged to sponsor and pass an amendment to the Constitution.

And here's a shock, anna: once again Chrys avoids his problem.

 

[chrysostom]

How do you reconcile voting for McCain given both his stand on abortion and your apparent view that the president impacts the issue?

by voting republican
and
urging others to do the same

I am hoping that the democratic party will be destroyed

 

[Town Heretic]

by voting republican
and
urging others to do the same

I am hoping that the democratic party will be destroyed

Now that isn't answering the question. You knowingly voted for someone who supports abortion. So in this regard you resemble the democrats who voted their party line, only slightly more selective.

Now I don't happen to think any president is going to decide an issue settled as a matter of law absent that amendment, but you put a great deal of stock in that distinction and it seems a bit hypocritical of you.

Also, you've failed to answer me anywhere I've pointed out the inherent problem with your relying on the destruction of a larger political view instead of changing people with larger differences on the issue that matters.

 

[annabenedetti]

I think it's a stupid approach, but it's the way Chrysostom has framed his support. And given his easy willingness to call other people baby killers because they support any democrat, I thought it was a reasonable challenge.

Barbarian has said the same in reverse. Have you addressed this with him?

 

[Town Heretic]

Barbarian has said the same in reverse. Have you addressed this with him?

I believe Barbarian's point was a sarcastic, satirical application of Chrysostom's principle--noting that by that standard he was no better than the people he labeled as baby killers.

I'll ask him, but that was my reading. I don't think he believes Chrysostom is actually a baby killer.

 

[annabenedetti]

I disagree with both chrys and Barbarian in their approaches.

The problem with the argument by both is that without an active legislative effort or case before the Supreme Court, neither Democrat or Republican president will effect any change.

Where the divide starts is where the particular president stands on ideology. Is he actively searching for pro-choice or pro-abortion judges? (chrys is right on this.) Is he affirming support for any current state-level legislation? Does he make promises to pro-aborts, whether individuals or organizations? Or does he affirm publicly his support for the sanctity of life, the need to create abortion alternatives? What is his voting record on these issues?

 

[annabenedetti]

I believe Barbarian's point was a sarcastic, satirical application of Chrysostom's principle--noting that by that standard he was no better than the people he labeled as baby killers.

I'll ask him, but that was my reading. I don't think he believes Chrysostom is actually a baby killer.

I think you may be surprised at his answer, so yes, I hope you do ask him.

 

[chrysostom]

Now that isn't answering the question. You knowingly voted for someone who supports abortion. So in this regard you resemble the democrats who voted their party line, only slightly more selective.

Now I don't happen to think any president is going to decide an issue settled as a matter of law absent that amendment, but you put a great deal of stock in that distinction and it seems a bit hypocritical of you.

Also, you've failed to answer me anywhere I've pointed out the inherent problem with your relying on the destruction of a larger political view instead of changing people with larger differences on the issue that matters.

I have made it very clear that the democratic party should be destroyed because they block conservative judges, which is our only hope of doing something about legal abortions

 

[kmoney]

Yes, I don't see how he can still get such unqualified support, considering how much damage has been done by this administration.

I don't think I'd call it unqualified support, though. The qualification being they still think Obama is better than McCain would have been.

That's a tough question, and one that is making for some pretty acrid conversation between a few TOLers here at the moment. Was Bush better than Gore? Absolutely. Was he better than Kerry? Absolutely. Did I agree with him on everything? No. A couple examples: Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, immigration, border. Yes: No Kyoto, no world court, good Supreme Court nominees (once he got past the Harriet Myers debacle).

Some differences between him and our current? I don't think Bush played fast and loose with the truth. I don't think Bush wanted to fundamentally transform this country. I don't think he was interested in throwing his executive weight around. And I think the credentials of his cabinet and appointees were of a much greater caliber than anyone in the motley crew assembled by this administration.

Thanks. :e4e: And I think the Obama supporters are using a similar line of reasoning.

 

[chrysostom]

The problem with the argument by both is that without an active legislative effort or case before the Supreme Court, neither Democrat or Republican president will effect any change.

do you understand that we do not have the judges we need
so
you can't do anything legislatively since almost any law will be declared unconstitutional by the present court

are you not aware of how the court ruled on partial birth abortion?

 

[annabenedetti]

Thanks. :e4e: And I think the Obama supporters are using a similar line of reasoning.

Their reasoning is faulty.

 

[annabenedetti]

do you understand that we do not have the judges we need
so
you can't do anything legislatively since almost any law will be declared unconstitutional by the present court

are you not aware of how the court ruled on partial birth abortion?

chrys, you're right about the judges. No argument from me on that. Where you and I will part is that I'm incredibly disappointed with most Republicans. They have let us down.

 

[chrysostom]

chrys, you're right about the judges. No argument from me on that. Where you and I will part is that I'm incredibly disappointed with most Republicans. They have let us down.

exactly how have they let us down?

 

[The Barbarian]

I'll ask him, but that was my reading. I don't think he believes Chrysostom is actually a baby killer.

I believe I pointed out that by Chrysostom's standards, he himself was a baby-killer.

But I may have sarcastically labeled him so after he repeatedly called others that for doing what he did himself.

No, I don't actually think he's a baby-killer. He votes to enable people who would permit baby-killing.

 

[annabenedetti]

exactly how have they let us down?

Because I do think that a lot of them (not all) pay lip service to pro-life issues.

 

[kmoney]

Their reasoning is faulty.

:chuckle: Understood.