toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

[chrysostom]

Does it need explaining? I thought it was fairly succinct.

Ok... One cannot force belief. It's there or it is not. One can be convinced... by a display, an experience, or an argument... but one cannot make a choice.

I could sit here and tell you all I believe in god. But I'd be lying to you and myself. I can't suddenly decide to believe anymore than you can decide not to.

why did you mention force?

 

[Layla]

why did you mention force?

Why did you pick one word out of a coherent post, rather than responding to the point said post was making?

 

[chrysostom]

Why did you pick one word out of a coherent post, rather than responding to the point said post was making?

you can't force yourself
or
no one can force you?

 

[Layla]

you can't force yourself
or
no one can force you?

I can't force myself. What would others forcing me have to do with a discussion on choice?

(No-one else can force me either, but that's not what I was saying.)

 

[chrysostom]

I can't force myself. What would others forcing me have to do with a discussion on choice?

(No-one else can force me either, but that's not what I was saying.)

I have changed my beliefs about many things
so
are you saying they were not conscious choices

 

[godrulz]

But all unsaved are destined to eternal condemnation and all believers to eternal life. There is no point evaluating their actions when you've already decided the outcome.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven/hell).

Works determines a believers rewards, while decrees of sin determines the lost's degree of punishment. The nature of this is not revealed.

Some believers have death bed conversions and will have little reward/responsibility compared to a life time missionary, for e.g. (but there destiny is the same).

Satan and Hitler will be at a lower level of hell or have a higher degree of punishment than the religious old lady who lived a good life, but did not surrender to Christ as Lord/Savior.

 

[godrulz]

No more than I fear the potential wrath of Islam for my 'crime' of non-belief. Why would I distinguish? I believe in neither Islam or Christianity.


It sounds profoundly wicked to me as well. A God that would engage in such sadism purely for the 'crime' of not believing in him is a God not worth worshiping.

You are equating true and false religion. Just because Islam is wrong does not mean Chrsitianity is false.

We can show that cults, world religions, atheism, false philosophies are deficient. We can show that Christianity is true and the gospel is the power of God for those who believe (Rom. 1:16).

You cannot say pure water and pure poison are the same just because you don't believe in either (subjective error vs objective truth).

We need revelation, not fallen reason/rationalism.

 

[chrysostom]

50,000 posts is a lot of work
but
you won't get any credit for it
if
it just creates confusion

 

[rocketman]

Belief is not a conscious choice.

Is rejection a concious thought?

 

[godrulz]

Well, assuming that I fall into that category, I suppose my first reaction would be to ask to see the charges against me. I don't believe I've ever done anything that warrants a punishment that I need to fear.

The Law condemns you as a godless sinner compared to a perfect, holy, righteous God. Who has not lied, stolen, hated, lusted, not loved God with our whole heart, not loved others equal with ourselves, coveted, etc.

As well, even when doing good, or motive can be wrong, selfish, etc.

Apart from the character and Law of God, you will justify yourself by comparing yourself to the worst people, not Jesus/God. Rom. 1-5 is truth. You are believing a lie.

 

[godrulz]

Belief is not a conscious choice.

Free moral agents have intellectual and volitional capacity to believe. Unbelief is also a choice (to reject light, truth). We are morally accountable precisely because we personally make a choice.

 

[Layla]

I have changed my beliefs about many things
so
are you saying they were not conscious choices

Er, yes? I am quite obviously saying that. You may have made choices to widen your studies and experiences, to open yourself up to influences which may help to convince you, but you didn't flip a switch and change your beliefs.

Is rejection a concious thought?

What does that even mean?

Free moral agents have intellectual and volitional capacity to believe. Unbelief is also a choice (to reject light, truth). We are morally accountable precisely because we personally make a choice.

Capacity for belief doesn't equal conscious control of belief. I disagree that we have any choice in whether or not we believe (and therefore don't agree that we are morally accountable for our beliefs - conscious actions stemming from said beliefs, however, we are accountable for).

 

[godrulz]

It isn't. You can't /choose/ to believe that anything is true. I can't literally choose to believe that Islam is true or Christianity is true. I have to be convinced that they are true as before I can believe. It is why Pascal's Wager is a fallacy and it is why the entire notion of redemption through thought is incoherent.

Faith vs presumption (Kierkegaardian existential blind leap of faith) is based on knowledge (notitia), assent (assensus), and trust (fiducia). It involves our mind and will in response to the convincing/convicting of the Spirit of Truth who points us to Jesus, the Truth. God's Word is also truth. Faith will come by hearing and believing and trusting.

 

[godrulz]

50,000 posts is a lot of work
but
you won't get any credit for it
if
it just creates confusion

The problem in communication may be sender, message, or recipient. I will be happy to try to clarify any sentence/post.

 

[chrysostom]

Er, yes? I am quite obviously saying that. You may have made choices to widen your studies and experiences, to open yourself up to influences which may help to convince you, but you didn't flip a switch and change your beliefs.

what if I changed my beliefs to something that made more sense to me?

is that a conscious choice?

 

[godrulz]

Capacity for belief doesn't equal conscious control of belief. I disagree that we have any choice in whether or not we believe (and therefore don't agree that we are morally accountable for our beliefs - conscious actions stemming from said beliefs, however, we are accountable for).

We are moral, intellectual, emotional agents in the image of God. We are not B.F. Skinner's behaviorism objects nor Pavlov's dog.

We can believe or not based on facts.

 

[Layla]

what if I changed my beliefs to something that made more sense to me?

is that a conscious choice?

No? Your beliefs changed because you were presented with a newer theory, different to one you had previously understood and identified with, which make more sense... which clicked; which convinced you.

 

[Layla]

We are moral, intellectual, emotional agents in the image of God. We are not B.F. Skinner's behaviorism objects nor Pavlov's dog.

We can believe or not based on facts.

Yes; if said facts persuade us, convince us... inspire belief! Not because we decide we fancy believing instead of [a] today.

 

[Traditio]

Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence.

--Bertrand Russell

I think; therefore, God exists.

 

[chrysostom]

No? Your beliefs changed because you were presented with a newer theory, different to one you had previously understood and identified with, which make more sense... which clicked; which convinced you.

can I now present that to you
and
change your beliefs?