Sorry, I don't angle for trash fish.
But you're welcome to answer the question.
http://www.tnaqua.org/Newsroom/HighRes/BlueCatfish.jpg
Some people like catfish.
toldailytopic: Did God choose an eternity ago who would, and who wouldn't, be saved?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
http://www.tnaqua.org/Newsroom/HighRes/BlueCatfish.jpg
Some people like catfish.
Oh no... it's Sozo
New member
"Illustrative"? :rotfl:
You just called Paul a liar. No biggie, you call Jesus a liar everyday.
You won't answer the question, because it will expose you again as a wolf.
Did Paul have free will to do as he wanted to do? Yes or No
I say no, because Paul says no.
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
Paul destroys your house of cards. He exposes you as a will worshiper (which you are).
Paul is using himself (illustrative) as an e.g. of struggle with sin. People debate whether it is pre or post-conversion and how to interpret each verse of the chapter. Rejecting your perfectionist interpretation is not calling Paul a liar, just you are sloppy exegete.
Oh no... it's Sozo
New member
His struggle, you moron. Why are you calling Paul a liar? What makes you better than Paul? Paul said he was sold into bondage to sin. You say he was not. Paul says that he could not do what he wants to do. You say: "Yes you can Paul".
You are backed once again in a corner, and once again, the few people who challenge you, will be told they are using "straw men" or whatever copy and paste crap you choose to post.
Why everyone on this site who "claims"
to be a Christian does not make you respond to what Paul says, is unbelievably sad. They must not care about you in the least, because they do indeed hold your hand on your way to hell.
Paul also spoke hyperbolically in I Tim. when he said he was the chief/worst sinner. Wooden literalism is not always the intention of a non-didactic passage. Paul struggled with sin before and after conversion, but he did have a choice to worship idols or Jesus, or not. This is why he gives so many commands/imperatives and exhortations to believers. Obedience vs disobedience presumes free will if there is to be moral culpability and the possibility of love relationship with God or rebellion against him. Interpret your proof texts in light of more explicit passages and principles.
Free will is not an idol, but part of the Imago Dei (image of God). It is why we are personal, not impersonal like a rock or robot.
Talk to the hand...
Knight,
God can't know a human until the fertilization of the egg. Why? Because you do not exist. God can't know the unknowable.
Because He designed the DNA code, God can look into a womb (IF HE WANTS TO), read the code, and know you while you are in your mother's womb.
In order for God to know a person, that person must first exist. Before the foundation of the world, no one existed. God, therefore, could not know you, let alone choose or reject you.
Does God know everything? No. Rather, God knows everything KNOWABLE that He wants to know. It's impossible, even for God, to give you free will to choose, and then know in advance how you you will choose.
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
Did God choose an eternity ago, who would and who wouldn't be saved?
Infralapsarianism?
I believe God the Father permitted the Fall. Afterwords, His Covenant with Jesus came to be the way God related to humans. The elect are saved in Him. While I assume God knows, I do not assume this effects human perception of choices and knowing right from wrong, good and evil.
Infralapsarianism?
I believe God the Father permitted the Fall. Afterwords, His Covenant with Jesus came to be the way God related to humans. The elect are saved in Him. While I assume God knows, I do not assume this effects human perception of choices and knowing right from wrong, good and evil.
CALVARY\CALVIN
New member
O,HEAVENLY LORD my FATHER IN CHRIST,THANK YOU 4 THIS REVELATION YESHUAH AMEN!!!
O,HEAVENLY LORD my FATHER IN CHRIST,THANK YOU 4 THIS REVELATION YESHUAH AMEN!!!
Yes most deffinately so!!! Because there is no such thing as fortuitious guess,and blind chances going on in the PRESENCE,& SIGHT OF THE ETERNAL,OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT,OMNISCEINT MIND'S EYE PERSPECTIVE!!! The "Arcitect" has the "exact reality" of the"house" "in his mind",before "he build's it";not the other way around!!!!!!Eph.1:3"Blessed"(happy) be the "God" and "Father" of "our"(all the"personal one's"who make up,or,are of and in that[our]of course God already knew"us",and who we were"then" subjectively within His Mind as He Thought about each of us,& Think's upon our objective form"now"from & in the Sight of His Eternal Perspective"then") Lord Jesus Christ,"who"hath blessed"us"with"all"(spiritual) blessings(in)heavenly(places)(in)(Christ)According)as(he)hath(chosen)(us)(in)(him)(before)the(foundation)of the world,that(we)should(be)holy and without blame"before"{in His sight}(him)in"love"(Rom.8:37 Nay,in(all)(these)things(we)(are)(more)than(conquerors)(through)(him)that("loved""us")Eph.1:5 Having"predestinated"(***im so sorry 4 all of Arminian's little god's,as long as that most beautiful of all word's remains in the Bible for true believer's ears to hear,your"disbelieving"doctrine,in GOD,andHIS DOCTRINE,WILL NEVER BE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***)"us"(***i praise You Father,myChristJesus & HolySpirit also;who am i,but dust from the earth that You have 4-ever so graciously free given,& filled with Your Life,& Self which is 4 me Salvation Eternal Everlasting***)"unto"(***directed(us)& wonderfully guided(us)too Himself in Christ by His HolySpirit,which was our final destination!!!***)the adoption(of)(children),("according")to the(good)(pleasure)of("his will"),***AND NOT YOUR ARMINIAN OWN***
O,HEAVENLY LORD my FATHER IN CHRIST,THANK YOU 4 THIS REVELATION YESHUAH AMEN!!!
Yes most deffinately so!!! Because there is no such thing as fortuitious guess,and blind chances going on in the PRESENCE,& SIGHT OF THE ETERNAL,OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT,OMNISCEINT MIND'S EYE PERSPECTIVE!!! The "Arcitect" has the "exact reality" of the"house" "in his mind",before "he build's it";not the other way around!!!!!!Eph.1:3"Blessed"(happy) be the "God" and "Father" of "our"(all the"personal one's"who make up,or,are of and in that[our]of course God already knew"us",and who we were"then" subjectively within His Mind as He Thought about each of us,& Think's upon our objective form"now"from & in the Sight of His Eternal Perspective"then") Lord Jesus Christ,"who"hath blessed"us"with"all"(spiritual) blessings(in)heavenly(places)(in)(Christ)
According)as(he)hath(chosen)(us)(in)(him)(before)the(foundation)of the world,that(we)should(be)holy and without blame"before"{in His sight}(him)in"love"(Rom.8:37 Nay,in(all)(these)things(we)(are)(more)than(conquerors)(through)(him)that("loved""us")Eph.1:5 Having"predestinated"(***im so sorry 4 all of Arminian's little god's,as long as that most beautiful of all word's remains in the Bible for true believer's ears to hear,your"disbelieving"doctrine,in GOD,andHIS DOCTRINE,WILL NEVER BE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***)"us"(***i praise You Father,myChristJesus & HolySpirit also;who am i,but dust from the earth that You have 4-ever so graciously free given,& filled with Your Life,& Self which is 4 me Salvation Eternal Everlasting***)"unto"(***directed(us)& wonderfully guided(us)too Himself in Christ by His HolySpirit,which was our final destination!!!***)the adoption(of)(children),("according")to the(good)(pleasure)of("his will"),***AND NOT YOUR ARMINIAN OWN***
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes, God makes choices, and He decided before the foundation of the world who would, and wouldn't be saved.
For example, God chooses to be merciful to some, and not to others.
However there are things that he can not choose. He can not choose to be holy, He is holy. He does not choose to love, He is love.
His love compelled Him to have His only begotten son die for us. The Son chose His own death, that night, in the Garden, to agree with the Father's will, and His love for a lost world.
It is important to know that God is not technically bound by any law, even His own. Rather He is bound by his own character, and characteristics.
Thus He does not change.
Therefore it is far greater a salvation than we truly understand, when one realizes, that we are not saved, or loved, merely by an immutable characteristic of God. Although some find great solace, in thinking this way.
Rather we are saved because He "chose" to act upon the counsel of His own will. To have mercy birthed out of His Love. That is the aspect of Love upon which He had to make a choice, "mercy", and judgment. The judgment was poured out on His son.
I find it far more wonderful, and amazing, that God has saved me because he "wanted" to, rather than that He "had" to!
God's choice is to save any human with "these" types of characteristics: humble, having a fear of God, poor in spirit, and whosoever calls upon His name! These people He chose in an eternity without time, and outside this earthly space.
A simple example is that he chooses the side of the prey against that of the predator. Yes the wolf has to eat to survive, just as the lamb does. But that is the side He chooses. The humble fearful, lowly dependent sheep!
If you are living this life as a predator, getting all you can from others, you might want to change sides. I did.
If you feel like the prey, in this world's jungle, and called upon His name while under one of this life's attacks, then you are being protected by His power, unto that day of eternal salvation.
Praise Yah!
For example, God chooses to be merciful to some, and not to others.
However there are things that he can not choose. He can not choose to be holy, He is holy. He does not choose to love, He is love.
His love compelled Him to have His only begotten son die for us. The Son chose His own death, that night, in the Garden, to agree with the Father's will, and His love for a lost world.
It is important to know that God is not technically bound by any law, even His own. Rather He is bound by his own character, and characteristics.
Thus He does not change.
Therefore it is far greater a salvation than we truly understand, when one realizes, that we are not saved, or loved, merely by an immutable characteristic of God. Although some find great solace, in thinking this way.
Rather we are saved because He "chose" to act upon the counsel of His own will. To have mercy birthed out of His Love. That is the aspect of Love upon which He had to make a choice, "mercy", and judgment. The judgment was poured out on His son.
I find it far more wonderful, and amazing, that God has saved me because he "wanted" to, rather than that He "had" to!
God's choice is to save any human with "these" types of characteristics: humble, having a fear of God, poor in spirit, and whosoever calls upon His name! These people He chose in an eternity without time, and outside this earthly space.
A simple example is that he chooses the side of the prey against that of the predator. Yes the wolf has to eat to survive, just as the lamb does. But that is the side He chooses. The humble fearful, lowly dependent sheep!
If you are living this life as a predator, getting all you can from others, you might want to change sides. I did.
If you feel like the prey, in this world's jungle, and called upon His name while under one of this life's attacks, then you are being protected by His power, unto that day of eternal salvation.
Praise Yah!
Too broad of a "TIME" as you said : "An ETERNITY Ago".
The WORLD...This very earth never existed for eternity, for it had a BEGINNING and it has an END.
So "NO" would be the answer to your question....BUT....
UNLESS you are fearful of the TRUTH, why not word the question CORRECTLY?
DID GOD CHOOSE WHO WOULD OR WOULD NOT BE SAVED?
The answer to this would be; YES.
How else can you work out all of the verses in the Bible in HARMONY to the church doctrine that "Man Chooses Christ?"
God chose those He would save BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
We see this HERE:
EPHESIANS 1:4-6
4.) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5.) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6.) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Even looking at the GREEK closely, we see this translation very accurate, so in that, How would YOU reconcile these verses to ANY OTHER CONCLUSION?
We also see the EXAMPLE GIVEN by SIMILITUDE and in PARABLE HERE:
GENESIS 1:3-4
3.) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4.) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
The light REPRESENTS Christ,...Salvation,....the ELECT to salvation.
The Darkness represents the UNSAVED,...wicked,...the unsaved to die.
THIS IS PROVEN HERE:
JOHN 1:4-5
4.) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5.) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
NOW COMPARE GENESIS 1:4 to JOHN 1:5.
We see that GOD created LIGHT, and THEN divided the Light from darkness, which means that THE LIGHT HAD TO BE SHINING IN DARKNESS before God separated the TWO.
Beside that, God hadn't created the SUN and the MOON at this point according to His WORD, for when He separated the Light from darkness, that was the FIRST DAY...God did not create the Greater LIGHT to rule the DAY or the LESSER LIGHT to RULE THE NIGHT until the FORTH DAY.
So in this we must understand that the LIGHT of GENESIS 1:3-4 must have to be THE LIGHT as the LIFE OF MEN...salvation, as referred to in JOHN 1:4-5.
Then we see a host of other scripture speaking perfectly to the PRINCIPLE and DOCTRINE that God CHOSE who would be saved, and referred to them as "the chosen", "the ELECT", "His Children", "His Sheep", and so on.
How could you reconcile any of the verses just mentioned and those following to any other conclusion?
2THESSALONIANS 2:13
13.) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1PETER 2:4 and 9
4.) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
9.) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
JOHN 15:19
19.) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
JOHN 6:37 an 44
37.) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44.) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
ROMANS 8:33
33.) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
1PETER 1:2
2.) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
There are a great many more verses that one needs to RECONCILE to a different conclusion to prove it true, other than the conclusion that God ELECTED those to salvation before the foundation of the world.
Search the scriptures to see if a thing is so, and don't believe me, but believe only GOD through His WORD.
peace
elohiym
Well-known member
No it doesn't.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind is not free to choose to obey the law of God. It is always disobedient. Always!
Again, your words contradict what Paul wrote.
Last edited:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
1 Timothy 2:3-7 (New King James Version)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
So, yes! God decided way back when who would, and who wouldn't be saved.
He decided everyone would be saved. Then, when He created us, He gave us free will and the power to disagree with that decision and reject it.
Why in the world would He do that?
1 John 4:19 (New King James Version)
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
John 13:34 (New King James Version)
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Deuteronomy 23:5 (New King James Version)
5 Nevertheless the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you.
Because you don't take the ones you love against their will.
sdgareth
New member
No
Everybody has a chance to accept God or Not.
If you choose to believe in God with all your mind body and soul
through that and the Grace of God you might be saved.
was that a yes or a no?
Oh no... it's Sozo
New member
Your question is just as vague. I can answer yes to your question, and it still would not mean that God chooses Bob and not Bill to be saved. God does choose that all those who obey the Gospel will be saved, and all those who do not are not saved. In fact, He did.
"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Th 2:6-8
You are confused. What God chose is that all those who are saved will be holy and blameless. He predestined that all those who are saved are accepted in the beloved. We are all adopted children.
Even if your personal interpretation is true, it does not support your theory that God chooses which individuals will be in the dark, and which will be in the light. He simply chooses that those in the light will be separated from those in darkness.
This just tells us how, not who.
Again, you pour your own understanding into the text, and fail to read it correctly (not to mention who the audience is here). Anyone who is saved is called out of darkness, and into His light,
"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." Acts 26:18
Context is His disciples whom He chose for a purpose. He did not choose for them to be saved. God knows the heart, and He chose them knowing their hearts.
The Father gives all to Jesus who believe in Him (verse 47). The Father chooses to draw men through the Gospel. This is about how men are saved, not who is individually saved.
Again, those who believe are elected to receive. You fail to understand what you read.
Look at it this way...
Let's say your dad is throwing you a birthday party, and everyone is invited.
At the party there is cake, ice cream, games, and party gifts that are predestined to be given to everyone who comes. Those who accept the invitation, and come to the party, are elected to receive everything the party offers, having been ordained in advance. Your dad determined in advance that all would be invited, but only those who come are chosen to receive.
- Status