The Watch Towers Founder Called Jesus "The Almighty"

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=15324]NWL[/MENTION] ... the post is done and fully generated. My responses have been made. If you would kindly copy over any other unanswered questions you have into this thread... I will be happy to answer anything you ask....

Shoot... I might even Exegete that Scripture run with you... if you show that you are more than a "Canned Theologian".

I will tolerate a little bit of name calling here and there and a few cheap jabs maybe, but you carry on the way you are and our discussions will stop. There is simply no need for such rudeness in a adult conversation, either fix up and pull yourself together or refrain from talking to me.

Oh... you didn't realize that you had become a laughing stock after Romans 10:13 ?

You did not use your words, you simply quoted scripture in reply to particular point I made. I can copy and paste the conversation if you like or you can stop your pointless lying. I suggest that the trinity teaches that Jehovah is one and you quoted three scriptures, Deuteronomy 6:4, Genesis 1:26 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23, you made no personal comments when doing so. Therefore I don't know how "you totally used words"???

Deuteronomy 6:4 , John 10:30 , Isaiah 43:11 , Gen. 1:26 and Isaiah 45:5 show that the Father and Son are irrefutably ONE!

1 Thessalonians 5:23 shows how this is possible!

So when I said you are unable to defend your own beliefs I wasn't wrong, I asked you numerous questions and raised numerous issues, your rebuttal and answer to those was to show me a link :Letsargu: A discussion works two ways, you talk I talk, you ask I answer, I ask you answer.

Ok... I'm here to discuss and answer questions.... Shoot...

Why are showing me a link? Can't you defend what you believe to be true yourself instead of copy and pasting a post you made regarding a general topic of the anti-Christ? You expect a lot from me but give nothing in return... apart from your cheap insults.

I wrote every word in that link and quoted it. I just wanted to show you where discussion has occurred well beyond any question you have posed.

Here are some points and questions you failed to address in my last post to you, you're under no obligation to answer. However a discussion, as already mentioned, generally involves listening, asking questions and answering questions. If you're incapable of any one of these I suggest you quit while you're ahead.

Oh... Oops.. it's hard to take a Canned Theological "Scholar" seriously... my bad... "I'm putting it on my serious face"

If there can be ONLY saviour how is it possible that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to as saviour using exactly the Hebrew term as applied to God in Isaiah 43:11 that you mentioned? According to Judges 3:9,15 does scripture allow for their to be more than one Savior?

Easy... God is Body, Spirit and Soul like you and I... but way COOLER... NEXT... or do you deny that Jehovah was seen in some form or another in the OT?

When God the Father subjected "all things" or gave "all authority" to Jesus, was God the Father himself included? Whether a yes or no please give an explanation, even if it's brief, so I can better understand your position.

Is not the Body, Spirit and Soul subject amongst itself?

If the classical trinitarian teaching is that Jehovah is one, who is three persons, and also that Jehovah is one according to Deut 6:4, why is it you claimed I'm telling lies when stating this? Am I incorrect, if so how?

Well.. because "Classical" and Biblical are two different matters. More to come... I'll edit more in a bit. ... Okay... I'm back... LUCKY Y-O-U!

Tertullian is who you are referring to... and though he was a "key" underwriter of "extra-biblical" creed... his full stance was known to be incorrect. He taught the sort of "Divine Tri-Ad" that is indeed "Poly-Theistic". He had rivals that expressed the Unity of GOD... and thus... he OVER differentiated the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again... He is actually rejected in the very "Creed" that quotes some of his writing.

Now... if you get biblical... you know that the Ruach HaKadesh... or Holy Spirit ... is a genuine manifestation or "Invisible Presence" of G-O-D. If you are honest with yourself... you will see that Jehovah covered a rock and "passed before Moses" ... Hind Side. This shows that God can "manifest" Himself...

But we know by the works of John that only those who "The Word/Logos... a.k.a. Son..." is the Revelation of the "Invisible" Father.

So... if you really want to look into this... we can continue.

Thanks for referring me to your thread.

I wrote it with conversations just like this in mind... and indecently... If you would understand that Jesus is the NAME of YHWH... you would soon understand how bad it is to keep calling Jesus "only the name of the Son"...

I am I not surprised that you again refer to someone else's writing and not produce your own exegesis regarding the scriptures I use along with my reasoning.

You have not taken kindly to the rebuke [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] and myself have brought your way... and thus I was trying to point you to the depth of Lon's understanding... He understands the Tri and the Une of it and can express it quite well.

I was trying to warn you that I was goading you into a sticky situation that would exhaust your rehearsed arguments.

Says the person who can only copy and paste, use reasoning relevant to the discussion.

Actually... I was trying to warn you what was up ahead... I was feeling you out and now I'm going ahead and moving forward with you.

Laughable.

I'm so very glad you laughed... it's good for your soul... and you're about to get theologically exposed more than the Romans 10:13 thing... which might I add is a plus in my favor.

Also... you laughed at linking Isaiah to scripture, when I can drop Isaiah 9:6 and end this Garbage in a second. The second one of us says... that verse was added or some other garbage... is the second the debate is over and someones name gets run up a flag pole with their dirty undies!

The only thing worth mentioning that I read in what you posted was in when comparing Isaiah 45:23 and Phil 2:10,11. You make the claim that since Isaiah 45:23 says "To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty" in regards to Jehovah and Phil 2:10,11 has "every knee" bending to Jesus, that Jesus must be the Jehovah of Isaiah 45:23.

God does too. He alone is God and He doesn't share His "Glory" with any other. That's in the OT and if you twist it with verses about Israel worshiping Kings and such... I'll know you're a deadite that has no original understanding.

What you fail to understand is the position Jesus holds in relation to worship and God the Father. We worship God the father THROUGH Jesus, "no one comes to the Father, except through me" (John 14:6), to deny Jesus is to deny the father since Jesus is the representative of the Father. Much like the Jews rejected God as King when rejecting Samuel as Judge over Israel (1 Samuel 8:7), by rejecting Jesus you reject the Father who sent Jesus.

Yup... you worship the VERY GLORY ... Heb. 1:3 of YHWH ... You worship the Glory that bound to our Sin. That whole "Atonement" thing depends on it.

As stated we worship the Father, not Jesus, by worshiping through Jesus. Thus we have Phil 2:10,11 that shows the Father Jehovah is the one who receive ultimate worship. We can clearly see Jesus words in John 14:6 being applied by every knee bending to Jesus, but that praise and glory doesn't go to Jesus, but rather through him and to the Father.

That makes no sense in light of this...

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

Funny thing about that word "Image"...

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

We can see that the IMAGE thing is kind of contradictory to Isaiah...

How about this?

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

And don't go all "Michael" on me either... because there is a verse that messes that up too. yup... I'm foreshadowing

Since the Father is the one who ultimately receives the glory from the bending of the knee it is proper that knee in effect bend to Father, but through Jesus. Therefore what is said in Isaiah 45:23, if applicable, presents no issue, since, it simply qualifies the final outcome of glorification that goes to the Father Jehovah, leaving out the means by which it got there.

Oops... You're forgetting that All Knees... EVERYWHERE Bow! Does the Father Bow to the Son?

Find a verse that suggests He doesn't... If He is not ONE with the Son like John 10:30 actually says... then He will bow too... According to the exact verbiage of Php. 2:9f, 11 ... and I'm relentless... the second you bible correct or question a verse... I'll run those skivvies up the flag pole!

(Isaiah 64:8) "..But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.."

Yup... and on that note... Are you saying that the PRESENCE here... Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. ,,,, is or isn't YHWH? It matters... because this is identified as Jehovah in your bible and mine. NKJV or NWT alike....

(Isaiah 45:23) "..By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty.."

So.... here it is.... You just proved that God swears by HIMSELF... just as the Son did all things By the Father. Nope... you can't wiggle out of it.... keep Isaiah coming because by Isaiah 9:6 you'll either buy a birthday cake, or be so visibly ripped apart by scripture that no matter how tall you "stand"... everyone will know you were beaten 40 ways to purgatory!

Not at all... It plainly states that Jesus is Jehovah... care to see?

Who is the subject of these verses?

Romans 10:9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.
11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich* toward all those calling on him.

Easy Evil.Eye easy, patience. I only saw your post about five to ten minutes prior to posting this. I regularly keep my browser and computer on so may appear online even when I'm not.

Romans 10:9 is in regards to declaring Jesus.

Joel 2:32 perhaps?

(Romans 10:9-13) For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. 11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

So... [MENTION=15324]NWL[/MENTION] ... you thought I had forgotten you? I can respond now... every verse you posted proves that Jesus is YHWH and on that note... your founder backs me. True... he bought the whole "Created" malarkey... but... he did get the Almighty part correct.

So put er there pal... shall we continue our discussion?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

One wonders why there are even JWs posting here.

"7 What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them. We also refuse to read their literature, watch TV programs that feature them, examine their Web sites, or add our comments to their blogs. Why do we take such a firm stand? Because of love. We love “the God of truth,” so we are not interested in twisted teachings that contradict his Word of truth. (Ps. 31:5; John 17:17) We also love Jehovah’s organization, through which we have been taught thrilling truths—including Jehovah’s name and its meaning, God’s purpose for the earth, the condition of the dead, and the hope of the resurrection. Can you recall how you felt when you first learned these and other precious truths? Why, then, allow yourself to be soured by anyone who would denigrate the organization through which you learned these truths?—John 6:66-69."
Src: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011524​

It appears those that do are out of accordance with their own organization's teachings.

AMR

 

[jamie]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-participants of the one divine essence. When speaking of the Godhead in formal theological terms, we would properly say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three personal subsistences of the one, divine, essence.

So which one of the three co-equal subsistences is the Highest?

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32)

 

[SOJ II]

So which one of the three co-equal subsistences is the Highest?

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32)

AMR is arguing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in terms of essence. I think you are arguing about function. Moreover, the verse can also be translated "Son of the Most High", which places the discussion in a different context.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

As we await the brave [MENTION=15324]NWL[/MENTION] 's reply ... I feel inspired to post ... John 10:30 ... Deut. 6:4

And... Why not...

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So which one of the three co-equal subsistences is the Highest?

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest" (Luke 1:32)

I'm going to say... good question... because the answer brought even more depth to AMR's post.

:thumb:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Happy weekend all...

NWL ??? No show? I'll be around after the weekend...

Later and toot alooo (With a masculine wave!)

 

[NWL]

Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.—“It is since His resurrection that the message has gone forth—‘All power in Heaven and in earth is given unto Me.’ (Matt 28:18.) Consequently it is only since then that He could be called the Almighty.”—Z. '93-115; Rev. 1:4; 16:5-7.​

Who said this? Charles Taze Russel... He said it in the following reference...

Just to bring the fire and ensure the Jehovahites sweat... here is the PDF Book Link...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4601...n_id=06f6d0390ce12aea3ec43cab7859ad7a40cb62e1

What page is it on? Page 23 and 24 of the PDF linked E-Book

What does this mean? It means that every Jehovahs Witness on this site that says Jesus isn't YHWH the Almighty is taught a lie that the founder of their organization would dispute!

I'm one of Jehovah's witnesses and I will remain as one till the day I die... unless that never happens.

You shout and bagger me because you claim I'm only here to promote "watchtower" material, you then quote writings and expect me to make reply in defence of "watchtower" that you accused me of promoting in the first place.

I'm not here to defend the Watch tower organisation. This is a typical example of shooting the messenger instead of attacking the message.

I did write a big old line of text, as I typically do, that shows Russell wasn't calling Jesus almighty in the sense of being almighty God, but simply in reference to what almighty meant back then (Websters Dictionary, Almighty: possessing all power) which was evident when he used Matt 28:18 just before the statement in question. Matt 28:18 states Jesus received all power and authority in heaven and on earth. Russell calling Jesus almighty in reference to Matt 28:18 and Jesus being almighty God are two different things.

I decided it was better not to post it because I'm not here to defend the society or members in it, but rather discuss and defend the bible.

And no, I won't be carrying our discussion from the trinity thread on to this one. We can finish our discussion where we started it.

 

[beameup]

Charles Russell said quite a few things that were overturned later by the brothers. In a nutshell---Russell said many things that we know to be untrue now, and we do not hold to those erroneous teachings.

That's because Charles Taze Russell was a false prophet.
The "founder" of the Watchtower Society just made things up.
If you go back prior to the phony "New World Translation",
you will see many teachings that have changed over the years.

 

[jamie]

AMR is arguing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in terms of essence. I think you are arguing about function. Moreover, the verse can also be translated "Son of the Most High", which places the discussion in a different context.

Jesus was sent to earth as a minister (servant) of the Most High.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him." (John 16)

Less than co-equal.

 

[SOJ II]

Jesus was sent to earth as a minister (servant) of the Most High.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him." (John 16)

Less than co-equal.

In the same section of John (the High Priestly Prayer), Jesus tells his followers that because they have seen Him they have seen the Father. Again, we are discussing co-equality in terms of essence, not function. The Father and the Son have the same essence in the same way that a human master and a human servant have the same essence(made in the image of God).

I agree that the Father and Jesus don't serve the same function (I'm not sure if this is right word, but it's the best my brain can come up with for now).The purpose of the Father and the Son is the same, but how they accomplish that purpose is different.

 

[jamie]

Again, we are discussing co-equality in terms of essence, not function.

Were they always of the same essence?

 

[SOJ II]

Were they always of the same essence?

By definition, they must. The essence of God is being (always). Thus, this has to be the case.

 

[jamie]

By definition, they must. The essence of God is being (always). Thus, this has to be the case.

Are you saying Jesus was never a mortal human?

 

[oatmeal]

Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.—“It is since His resurrection that the message has gone forth—‘All power in Heaven and in earth is given unto Me.’ (Matt 28:18.) Consequently it is only since then that He could be called the Almighty.”—Z. '93-115; Rev. 1:4; 16:5-7.​

Who said this? Charles Taze Russel... He said it in the following reference...

Just to bring the fire and ensure the Jehovahites sweat... here is the PDF Book Link...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4601...n_id=06f6d0390ce12aea3ec43cab7859ad7a40cb62e1

What page is it on? Page 23 and 24 of the PDF linked E-Book

What does this mean? It means that every Jehovahs Witness on this site that says Jesus isn't YHWH the Almighty is taught a lie that the founder of their organization would dispute!

Well, not being a JW or a Christadelphian, I thought about posting here.

But since Jesus is the mightiest man that ever lived, (what else would you expect from the son of God), I could see him being called an almighty man.

However, as trinitarians are quick to point out, Jesus stated that "all power and authority is given to me"

Who gave him that power?

If he was God, then he would not need to be given that power, he would already have it.

Since those that believe on his name shall do the same works as Jesus Christ and greater, if he was God, then why is their no equal works or greater works being done by trinitarians?

If the trins are right dividing the word of truth and Jesus being God created the heavens and the earth, why don't trins do the same work? and greater work than creating the heaven and the earth.

Why moan and groan about how evil this world is? Why do a greater work than Jesus Christ and fix it?

Jesus was given all might that God knew he required to do his Father's will.

 

[KingdomRose]

Well.. hells bells! Have another thank you... it does the heart good to get along with a fellow believer in Jesus our Almighty Redeemer, God and Glorious King of Eternity!

Blah blah blah. :down:

 

[KingdomRose]

KR... if this Kitchen is too hot.. you can show yourself out. The Almighty Jesus comment came from your doctrinal "father"... if you can't trust him... I do believe your organization is as false as all of the other "cliques" you all profess to be profane and of the beast.

That 144,000 ticket looks like it just got punched and you have egg... all over your face.

You, sir, have egg all over YOUR face, because you accept what Russell supposedly said about Jesus, and yet you can't reply to my question to you about why you don't accept OTHER things he said. Do you have an answer, little evil child? Why don't you believe what he said about hell being the GRAVE and not a literal fiery place where people are roasted forever?

 

[KingdomRose]

Re. post #21 by Evil Eye....

Your citations of scriptures have been commented on and your spurious teachings have been refuted. You insist on ignoring the explanations that rebut your ridiculous ideas, and it gets wearisome REPEATING ourselves endlessly.....Does a person deserve a following just because he talks the longest and the loudest? You talk and talk and talk and that's all you do. You're all sound and fury and nothing meaningful. I wonder why anyone takes you seriously.

 

[KingdomRose]

One wonders why there are even JWs posting here.

"[FONT=&]7 [/FONT][FONT=&]What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them. We also refuse to read their literature, watch TV programs that feature them, examine their Web sites, or add our comments to their blogs. Why do we take such a firm stand? Because of love. We love “the God of truth,” so we are not interested in twisted teachings that contradict his Word of truth. ([/FONT]Ps. 31:5; John 17:17[FONT=&]) We also love Jehovah’s organization, through which we have been taught thrilling truths[/FONT][FONT=&]—including Jehovah’s name and its meaning, God’s purpose for the earth, the condition of the dead, and the hope of the resurrection. Can you recall how you felt when you first learned these and other precious truths? Why, then, allow yourself to be soured by anyone who would denigrate the organization through which you learned these truths?[/FONT][FONT=&]—[/FONT]John 6:66-69[FONT=&]."
Src: [/FONT]https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011524​

[FONT=&]
[/FONT]It appears those that do are out of accordance with their own organization's teachings.

AMR

There are many here on these threads that are looking for answers; many who read but don't comment. It is because of those people that we post on these forums.

 

[KingdomRose]

AMR is arguing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in terms of essence. I think you are arguing about function. Moreover, the verse can also be translated "Son of the Most High", which places the discussion in a different context.

Oh knock it off. More mental gymnastics!! The Father is either the Most High or he is not. The entire Bible indicates that YHWH is the Most High, and Jesus called Him "the only true God." The Father EXALTED Jesus to a superior position after he was resurrected (Phil.2:8-11), so if Jesus was EQUAL to the Father, why would he need to be exalted to a HIGHER position? What higher position would there be if Jesus was already God? Do you have an answer?