The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

New member
My so called theory, doesn't "require that all" the elohim, created this universe. Why would you jump to the conclusion, that every single angel in God's kingdom, would have to participate in the creation of this universe, if the angels created this universe? You are also asserting without evidence, that this world was created, after the war in heaven, which is not necessarily the case. However, even if that were true, it still doesn't discount the possibility, that the holy angels, created this world, even after the rebellion in heaven.

The angels are the eyes, arms, hands, even the very face of YHWH. The presence and glory of YHWH is transmitted through His angels.

No, rather the opposite. I would have said that the world would have been created before the fall of the angels. If you want to see what was doing the creating, you should read what it says rather than trying to force your interpretation into the text (eisigesis!)

Genesis 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The world was created by one divine fiat, and rather than saying "the spirits of God" or "the gods of God" moved upon the waters, it says "the Spirit of God" (singular) "moved upon the face of the waters.

Would it really hurt to let the scripture speak for itself, rather than trying to assign a mystical layer on top of it? It doesn't say angels moved on the waters, but one Spirit did the moving.
 

Rosenritter

New member

Spoiler

Israel has always understood that the five books of Moses, are the metric, the standard, by which all other scriptures are tested. It is the foundation. So whatever is built upon that foundation, must be compatible with it. It must agree with Torah. There are three levels or degrees, of inspiration. TORAH - NEVIM - KETHUVIM (Law - Prophets - Writings). No genuine prophet or apostle of YHWH, will ever teach against Torah. Paul claimed that the gentiles, replace Israel. Israel is cut off from the branch and replaced with the wild branches. He also claimed that Israel doesn't have to keep Torah anymore. Although Paul, did what he did out of pride, he did it by God's permission, in order to draw out the lost sheep of Israel from the nations/gentiles.

The lost tribes of Israel, assimilated into the nations. So God would draw out his people from the nations, by creating a gentile religion that would mimic the faith of Israel, by misreading and twisting the Torah. It would become, clearly antithetical to Torah. A lawless religion. This is attractive to the gentiles, but once the elect among the gentiles, who are Christians, find the contradictions, between Paul and Torah, they run to YHWH and His Messiah, while keeping Torah. They become part of the restored Israel.

The tares, or non-elect, will gobble up Christianity, like swine eating slop out of a bucket. They love it! The gentiles, will readily accept the idea that they don't have to keep Torah, and yet, somehow, still comprise Israel (God's elect. A nation of priests and kings, that walk in the way of His Torah/Divine Law.).

The gentiles, can believe in all types of errors, and God will pardon them through the work of Messiah, but in that group of confused gentiles, there is the wheat. The elect of YHWH. God draws them out, when they see the truth of Torah. They become aware, that Christianity is wrong, and that Israel wasn't replaced by the church. These gentiles, adopt the way of YHWH, which is His Torah, joining the commonwealth of Israel/God's Kingdom Nation.

So, Paul served a purpose. God takes that which is evil, and turns it to accomplish His will. What was meant for evil, becomes a blessing. Paul changed the gospel of the kingdom, in order to create a following of gentiles and he accomplished just that. He created Christianity. Christianity should be called "Paulianity". YHWH uses Paulianity / "Christianity", to draw out His elect from the nations. From the gentiles. He draws out the wheat from the chaff. He takes those people, who weren't Israel, and transforms them into Israel, by their love for YHWH and His Torah/Law/Divine Instructions. They seek YHWH in truth and holiness, setting themselves apart for YHWH, by the spirit and power of Messiah, hence they are declared "Israel" (The Prince Of EL), a nation of priests, that will reign over the nations with Messiah.


There is no reason for Israel, to accept a body of scripture, that contradicts, Torah. So, the only scriptures in the so called "NT", that the disciples of Jesus should value and read for their personal instruction and edification, are the NT scriptures that agree with the Hebrew bible. Any NT writing, that doesn't agree with the Hebrew bible, might have some historical value, but it is not God's word. So, I assert that the most authoritative body of writings in the NT, are the words of Jesus as recorded in the gospel of Matthew. The gospel of Matthew, was written early, by one of Messiah's twelve apostles, to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic (The language of Israel and Messiah). Wherever the other gospels disagree with the gospel of Matthew, the gospel of Matthew should take precedence. The way it is written in Matthew's gospel, should be considered the actual, accurate description of events.

The epistles that bear the names of the 12 apostles, should be examined as to their authenticity and concordance with Torah and the gospel of Matthew. All of the epistles, that bear the names of the 12 apostles, except 2nd Peter (a forgery, attested to not just by its content but by testimony of the early church).

Richard Bauckham writes in the HarperCollins Bible Commentary:

" 2 Peter belongs not only to the literary genre of the letter, but also to that of "testament"... In Jewish usage the testament was a fictional genre... It is therefore likely that 2 Peter is also a pseudonymous work, attributed to Peter after his death... These literary considerations and the probable date of 2 Peter... make authorship by Peter himself very improbable."


Scot McKnight, writing in the Eerdmans Commentary notes that 2 Peter

"...was probably composed within two decades after his death. No book in the Bible had more difficulty establishing itself in the canon. As late as Eusebius (d. 371) some did not consider 2 Peter to be from the Apostle or part of the canon... doubts continued for centuries (e.g., Calvin and Luther)"

McKnight adds:

" There is clear evidence that 2 Peter is either dependent on Jude or on a later revision of a tradition used by the author of Jude and then by the author of 2 Peter... The letter probably emerges from a Hellenistic Jewish context, probably in Asia."

Neither Bauckham nor McKnight can be regarded as skeptics, both are firmly within the conservative Christian tent. Bart Ehrman, on the other hand, isn't. He notes that whoever wrote 2 Peter, it was not Simon Peter the disciple of Jesus. Unlike 1 Peter, the letter of 2 Peter was not widely accepted, or even known, in the early church. The first time any author makes a definite reference to the book is around 220 CE, that is 150 years after it was allegedly written. It was finally admitted into the canon somewhat grudgingly, as church leaders of the later third and fourth centuries came to believe that it was written by Peter himself. But it obviously wasn't. If you want to believe it was, go right ahead and deceive yourself.

It doesn't seem you understand the Torah either, because it testified of Him. Tell me, what signs or wonders do you present that we should believe you? The prophets have departed from Israel, they followed Christianity and sanctioned the scriptures.
 

marhig

Well-known member
Reality Jerk's prime motivator is to deny Jesus as LORD. So he's cutting away every scripture that comes close with books at a time. The more he cuts away the less scripture remains. I've seen someone use this same tactic before until they had no New Testament left except three or four books. He was left with Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and James.

It still didn't work for him. You can show Christ's divinity in the first few chapters of Matthew too.
There is only one God Almighty and he's the father. Even Jesus himself says that the father is the only true God, and he is also the God and father of Christ Jesus as clearly shown in the bible.

And Christ Jesus is the Son of the living God, just as the father showed through Revelation to Peter.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Go ahead, present your evidence from Matthew that Jesus is YHWH. I will be responding to all of your posts, within the next two or three days.

Tell me first what scripture you accept, because it's important to use scripture to establish definitions. For example, if I asked what it meant to prophesy, what would be your answer? If I use Deuteronomy and Peter to establish that a prophet is one who speaks in the name of the LORD, do you reject this because it's found in Peter? Or do you at least accept it from Deuteronomy?

Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
(22) When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

2 Peter 1:21 KJV
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I allow your rejection of scripture. You stepped onto a Christian forum where the authority of scripture is already assumed as a given for those posting here, and you didn't state up front that you rejected the scripture. Please be honest and state what you do accept in its entirety without leaving parts out. Thank you.
 

Rosenritter

New member
There is only one God Almighty and he's the father. Even Jesus himself says that the father is the only true God, and he is also the God and father of Christ Jesus as clearly shown in the bible.

And Christ Jesus is the Son of the living God, just as the father showed through Revelation to Peter.

I realize that we haven't yet come to agreement on interpretation and reading, but I appreciate that you do honor the whole scripture. Would you answer this question please? If the LORD God appears to a prophet in a dream, is this also God? Or would you say this is not God because it was not the fullness of God in power and glory?
 

marhig

Well-known member
I realize that we haven't yet come to agreement on interpretation and reading, but I appreciate that you do honor the whole scripture. Would you answer this question please? If the LORD God appears to a prophet in a dream, is this also God? Or would you say this is not God because it was not the fullness of God in power and glory?
God is in all those who belong to him, he's in Christ and Christ is in him. He is in those who belong to him in heaven and in earth and we are in him. And we are one Spirit, those born of God are one with the father and Christ.

God is love, and his love, mercy, and forgiveness is in and through all to those who truly belong to him, those born of God have the fruit of his Spirit in and through them and you'll see the works of God and the life of Christ in their lives. Their hearts and minds will be changed to be more like that of Christ. The more we are willing to turn from the flesh and world, the more God fills our heart with his Spirit, and the stronger we become in God.

God can appear through a person, in a dream, in a vision, in the things he has created. There is only one Almighty God and he's the father and all his works are done through Christ by the Spirit.

The Spirit is of God, and both the Father and Christ are in the Spirit, so when the Spirit enters our heart, the Father and Christ enter in too, and Christ by the power of the Spirit is made manifest in our hearts. The father has set Christ Jesus at his right hand and has given him all authority in heaven and in earth, and the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ.

So what I mean is, if the Spirit is in our heart, then our hearts should be changed, and the love of God and the life of Christ should be made manifest in and through those who truly belong to him, by the grace of God, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That's what I believe in my heart to be the truth.
 

lifeisgood

New member
So you understand that St. Paul is saying that the Spirit dwells in the heart of the believer, and that the Spirit is Christ, making the believer the body of Christ?

I am saying:
Paul after saying that the Lord Jesus was “the spirit,” Paul says, “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit,” (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Paul was saying that we who have turned to Christ we do read Moses (Torah), we see the glory of the Lord Jesus and we are being conformed to Christ’s image.

Paul wanted them and us to see Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham, the lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice, and the great High Priest.

Jesus is the key to the spiritual understanding of the Old Testament.

Without Jesus there is only the letter which kills, but through Christ there is the spirit that gives life.
 

lifeisgood

New member
God does not play favoritism when it comes to someone doing wrong. That means if you do wrong you will be repaid for it, not matter if you call yourself a Christian or not.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Oh, you mean like this:
All you did is prove how much more I mean to God.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Why are you changing what is written?
The Sword is the Word of God.; and, the Rider is the Word of God.

The scripture plainly says that it is the sword of the Spirit. The sword is coming out of the Rider’s mouth and it is HIS SWORD.

Oh, gt, if you would only use the brain the Lord has given you to read for understanding.
 

lifeisgood

New member
I see a long list but I cannot find my precious negative reps from GE. I think they get bumped down from other comments.

Look for the ones that are marked with a red dot, but I think you are correct that eventually they are pushed down and you can't find them anymore.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
Marhig, are you able to answer the question? It seems difficult to proceed in logical steps when your responses keep moving about in curly ques.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Rosenritter

I realize that we haven't yet come to agreement on interpretation and reading, but I appreciate that you do honor the whole scripture. Would you answer this question please? If the LORD God appears to a prophet in a dream, is this also God? Or would you say this is not God because it was not the fullness of God in power and glory?
Spoiler
God is in all those who belong to him, he's in Christ and Christ is in him. He is in those who belong to him in heaven and in earth and we are in him. And we are one Spirit, those born of God are one with the father and Christ.

God is love, and his love, mercy, and forgiveness is in and through all to those who truly belong to him, those born of God have the fruit of his Spirit in and through them and you'll see the works of God and the life of Christ in their lives. Their hearts and minds will be changed to be more like that of Christ. The more we are willing to turn from the flesh and world, the more God fills our heart with his Spirit, and the stronger we become in God.

God can appear through a person, in a dream, in a vision, in the things he has created. There is only one Almighty God and he's the father and all his works are done through Christ by the Spirit.

The Spirit is of God, and both the Father and Christ are in the Spirit, so when the Spirit enters our heart, the Father and Christ enter in too, and Christ by the power of the Spirit is made manifest in our hearts. The father has set Christ Jesus at his right hand and has given him all authority in heaven and in earth, and the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ.

So what I mean is, if the Spirit is in our heart, then our hearts should be changed, and the love of God and the life of Christ should be made manifest in and through those who truly belong to him, by the grace of God, through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That's what I believe in my heart to be the truth.

I really am trying to go somewhere this this. It won't work if I cannot get concrete answers with these little tiny steps I'm trying here.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Go ahead, present your evidence from Matthew that Jesus is YHWH. I will be responding to all of your posts, within the next two or three days.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/44/

Besides its original derivation from Genesis, it's also in 1 Chronicles in a nice sentence form for you.

1 Chronicles 1:1-4 HOT
(1) אדם שׁת אנושׁ׃
(2) קינן מהללאל ירד׃
(3) חנוך מתושׁלח למך׃
(4) נח... שׁם חם ויפת׃


1 Chronicles 1:1-4 KJV
(1) Adam, Sheth, Enosh,
(2) Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered,
(3) Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech,
(4) Noah...
 

JudgeRightly

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Marhig, are you able to answer the question? It seems difficult to proceed in logical steps when your responses keep moving about in curly ques.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Rosenritter

I realize that we haven't yet come to agreement on interpretation and reading, but I appreciate that you do honor the whole scripture. Would you answer this question please? If the LORD God appears to a prophet in a dream, is this also God? Or would you say this is not God because it was not the fullness of God in power and glory?
Spoiler


I really am trying to go somewhere this this. It won't work if I cannot get concrete answers with these little tiny steps I'm trying here.
Every time I try to take baby steps with questions, they always criticize me for being deceptive. Don't expect them to play along.
 
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