God's Truth
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So are you saying you don't believe that Jesus is the Spirit even though it is stated plainly?
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
So are you saying you don't believe that Jesus is the Spirit even though it is stated plainly?
God's Truth
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You have not disproved anything that I said.
You don't even believe what is plainly written. You try to change it.
God's Truth
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God does not play favoritism when it comes to someone doing wrong. That means if you do wrong you will be repaid for it, not matter if you call yourself a Christian or not.
Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
RealityJerk
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Israel has always understood that the five books of Moses, are the metric, the standard, by which all other scriptures are tested. It is the foundation. So whatever is built upon that foundation, must be compatible with it. It must agree with Torah. There are three levels or degrees, of inspiration. TORAH - NEVIM - KETHUVIM (Law - Prophets - Writings). No genuine prophet or apostle of YHWH, will ever teach against Torah. Paul claimed that the gentiles, replace Israel. Israel is cut off from the branch and replaced with the wild branches. He also claimed that Israel doesn't have to keep Torah anymore. Although Paul, did what he did out of pride, he did it by God's permission, in order to draw out the lost sheep of Israel from the nations/gentiles.
The lost tribes of Israel, assimilated into the nations. So God would draw out his people from the nations, by creating a gentile religion that would mimic the faith of Israel, by misreading and twisting the Torah. It would become, clearly antithetical to Torah. A lawless religion. This is attractive to the gentiles, but once the elect among the gentiles, who are Christians, find the contradictions, between Paul and Torah, they run to YHWH and His Messiah, while keeping Torah. They become part of the restored Israel.
The tares, or non-elect, will gobble up Christianity, like swine eating slop out of a bucket. They love it! The gentiles, will readily accept the idea that they don't have to keep Torah, and yet, somehow, still comprise Israel (God's elect. A nation of priests and kings, that walk in the way of His Torah/Divine Law.).
The gentiles, can believe in all types of errors, and God will pardon them through the work of Messiah, but in that group of confused gentiles, there is the wheat. The elect of YHWH. God draws them out, when they see the truth of Torah. They become aware, that Christianity is wrong, and that Israel wasn't replaced by the church. These gentiles, adopt the way of YHWH, which is His Torah, joining the commonwealth of Israel/God's Kingdom Nation.
So, Paul served a purpose. God takes that which is evil, and turns it to accomplish His will. What was meant for evil, becomes a blessing. Paul changed the gospel of the kingdom, in order to create a following of gentiles and he accomplished just that. He created Christianity. Christianity should be called "Paulianity". YHWH uses Paulianity / "Christianity", to draw out His elect from the nations. From the gentiles. He draws out the wheat from the chaff. He takes those people, who weren't Israel, and transforms them into Israel, by their love for YHWH and His Torah/Law/Divine Instructions. They seek YHWH in truth and holiness, setting themselves apart for YHWH, by the spirit and power of Messiah, hence they are declared "Israel" (The Prince Of EL), a nation of priests, that will reign over the nations with Messiah.
There is no reason for Israel, to accept a body of scripture, that contradicts, Torah. So, the only scriptures in the so called "NT", that the disciples of Jesus should value and read for their personal instruction and edification, are the NT scriptures that agree with the Hebrew bible. Any NT writing, that doesn't agree with the Hebrew bible, might have some historical value, but it is not God's word. So, I assert that the most authoritative body of writings in the NT, are the words of Jesus as recorded in the gospel of Matthew. The gospel of Matthew, was written early, by one of Messiah's twelve apostles, to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic (The language of Israel and Messiah). Wherever the other gospels disagree with the gospel of Matthew, the gospel of Matthew should take precedence. The way it is written in Matthew's gospel, should be considered the actual, accurate description of events.
The epistles that bear the names of the 12 apostles, should be examined as to their authenticity and concordance with Torah and the gospel of Matthew. All of the epistles, that bear the names of the 12 apostles, except 2nd Peter (a forgery, attested to not just by its content but by testimony of the early church).
Richard Bauckham writes in the HarperCollins Bible Commentary:
" 2 Peter belongs not only to the literary genre of the letter, but also to that of "testament"... In Jewish usage the testament was a fictional genre... It is therefore likely that 2 Peter is also a pseudonymous work, attributed to Peter after his death... These literary considerations and the probable date of 2 Peter... make authorship by Peter himself very improbable."
Scot McKnight, writing in the Eerdmans Commentary notes that 2 Peter
"...was probably composed within two decades after his death. No book in the Bible had more difficulty establishing itself in the canon. As late as Eusebius (d. 371) some did not consider 2 Peter to be from the Apostle or part of the canon... doubts continued for centuries (e.g., Calvin and Luther)"
McKnight adds:
" There is clear evidence that 2 Peter is either dependent on Jude or on a later revision of a tradition used by the author of Jude and then by the author of 2 Peter... The letter probably emerges from a Hellenistic Jewish context, probably in Asia."
Neither Bauckham nor McKnight can be regarded as skeptics, both are firmly within the conservative Christian tent. Bart Ehrman, on the other hand, isn't. He notes that whoever wrote 2 Peter, it was not Simon Peter the disciple of Jesus. Unlike 1 Peter, the letter of 2 Peter was not widely accepted, or even known, in the early church. The first time any author makes a definite reference to the book is around 220 CE, that is 150 years after it was allegedly written. It was finally admitted into the canon somewhat grudgingly, as church leaders of the later third and fourth centuries came to believe that it was written by Peter himself. But it obviously wasn't. If you want to believe it was, go right ahead and deceive yourself.
RealityJerk
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Here are some very interesting articles on "biblical inerrancy":
http://postbarthian.com/2017/03/05/...biblical-inerrancy-martin-luther-john-calvin/
http://postbarthian.com/2016/09/27/errors-inerrancy-1-church-never-possessed-inerrant-bible/
We don't worship the bible, we worship YHWH and His Son.
http://postbarthian.com/2017/03/05/...biblical-inerrancy-martin-luther-john-calvin/
http://postbarthian.com/2016/09/27/errors-inerrancy-1-church-never-possessed-inerrant-bible/
We don't worship the bible, we worship YHWH and His Son.
God's Truth
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Why are you changing what is written?
The Sword is the Word of God.; and, the Rider is the Word of God.
The scripture plainly says that it is the sword of the Spirit. The sword is coming out of the Rider’s mouth and it is HIS SWORD.
God's Truth
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You never did reply to my post where I ask you if you believe you have the Holy Spirit inside you.
God's Truth
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No such thing.
God's Truth
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You need to explain that better.
We are all flesh and we all have our own spirit.
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form
John the baptizer came in the spirit of Elijah, meaning John came preaching repentance of sins just as Elijah had done.
Again, we all have our OWN spirit within us; and, when one is saved, they are given the Spirit of God.
Elijah had his own spirit in him, and he also had the Spirit of God.
Same with John the baptizer.
The difference with Jesus is that his own Spirit IS the Spirit of God.
Maybe you need to think. Maybe you should take your own advice. I know I have explained all this to you before and very carefully, but you don't give it enough consideration.
Rosenritter
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You've already stated that you reject any scripture written by Paul. You've said you reject anything written by Peter because you claim it is a forgery. You ignore the words of John, the beloved disciple of Jesus. You reject Acts because it endorses Paul. You also seem to reject the prophet Isaiah as it refers to Jesus as none other than God.
Would you like to give us a short list of what you do accept as scripture?
Rosenritter
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Reality Jerk's prime motivator is to deny Jesus as LORD. So he's cutting away every scripture that comes close with books at a time. The more he cuts away the less scripture remains. I've seen someone use this same tactic before until they had no New Testament left except three or four books. He was left with Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and James.
It still didn't work for him. You can show Christ's divinity in the first few chapters of Matthew too.
RealityJerk
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We have YHWH's spirit, working in us and through us, if we repent of our sins, and keep His commandments, in Messiah:
Rev_12:17* And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12* Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14* Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Law and Faith in Messiah, together. The word for faith in hebrew is "Emunah", it means "Faithfulness". Keeping YHWH's Law and bearing testimony that Yeshua/Jesus is His Son and Messiah. If you do that, you will have the spirit and power of YHWH working in and through you.
Rosenritter
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No, Jesus is YHWH because he calls himself by his reserved names and titles, and rather than being counted as blasphemy, it's preserved as holy scripture, Jesus is YHWH because he fulfills the Old Testament prophesies as such.
For example (and there are more like this):
Zechariah 12:10 KJV
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Who is speaking in Zechariah 12? He's called the LORD.
John 5:39 KJV
(39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Luke 24:25-27 KJV
(25) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
(26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
You deny our LORD and Christ because you know not Moses and the prophets.
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RealityJerk
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You essentially just made my point. It can be said, that Elisha and John, received the spirit and power of Elijah, because they were carrying out their respective ministries, with the same divine anointing that Elijah possessed. We as believers in Messiah, operate in the same spirit and power that Messiah had, hence it can be said, that we come in the spirit and power of Messiah. That doesn't imply that Messiah's spirit is literally YHWH's spirit, anymore than Elijah's spirit is literally YHWH's spirit. You may not understand or comprehend what I'm saying, but I know others will read this, and understand exactly what I'm saying.
Your claim that the spirit of Jesus, is ontologically one with the spirit of YHWH, is completely groundless. Jesus is the Son of YHWH, not YHWH Himself.
Rosenritter
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It's not about intelligence. Someone can be very smart and very clever on either side of this issue.
Rosenritter
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I see a long list but I cannot find my precious negative reps from GE. I think they get bumped down from other comments.
RealityJerk
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Go ahead, present your evidence from Matthew that Jesus is YHWH. I will be responding to all of your posts, within the next two or three days.
God's Truth
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Right.
We agree on that.
You say the saved have the Spirit of God living in us. That is right.
Now tell me, do you have Jesus' Spirit in you?
God's Truth
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I am proving with scripture that Jesus' Spirit IS the Spirit of God the Father.
You have said that you have the Holy Spirit living inside you.
Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God?
Do you also have Jesus' Spirit in you?
Rosenritter
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No, it's not saying that multiple gods led them out.
That Angel has a name, Jesus. Or at least we pronounce it Jesus since New Testament times. It's Joshua in the Hebrew. Specifically, Joshua the son of Nun, formerly Oshea the son of Nun. Why do you figure his name was changed from Oshea to Joshua (Jesus?) We're told the significance of his name in the same passage, my name is in him.
Exodus 23:20-23 KJV
(20) Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
(21) Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
(22) But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
(23) For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
This angel had a voice that they could listen to. That Angel's name was Joshua. That Joshua does not forgive sins. The later Joshua does forgive sins. Why? Only God can forgive sin.
Is this Joshua being called god? or God? No, he's not. This doesn't really help your point, you yanked it out of context.
No, not proved nor demonstrated. Your passage that you're trying to use says that that the Lord alone did lead him. There was one pillar of cloud and fire that was leading Israel, not many. The passage in question was when God specifically says that he created the heavens and the earth alone.
There's no need for God to say he created the heavens and the earth alone if it was created by every sentient thing in existence. Your interpretation is forced and denies the meaning of the text.