The Trinity

[Bright Raven]

Nope he didn't.

You need more study time GT.

Sent from my VS835 using TOL mobile app

Have to agree with you here, The Father is not the Son.

 

[Rosenritter]

Originally Posted by Rosenritter
Please show me the gospel passage (or from Revelation) where Jesus teaches us to worship a Trinity. I want to see where he introduces Trinity, defines Trinity, and tells us that this is a requirement of salvation please.

There are 968 pages here. Don't claim you have not been shown.

The problem is you do not believe what has been written.

I could walk you through what Jesus said, and you'd start taking about angels when the Spirit is mentioned. I could show you how Jesus came out from God and the Spirit came out from God, and you'd say the Spirit is not unique...you'd explain it all away, just as you do so many other words that are written in the Bible.

IF the Holy Spirit had done His work in you, you would recognize our Triune God. That you don't, tells me you cannot be convinced by words. Only His presence will make Him real to you.

In other words, Jesus didn't instruct about a Trinity, and you haven't shown that in 900 + pages, so you're sticking with the tried and true "Call 'em a heretic and claim that the proof is somewhere else."

Glory, did you notice that there's no debate from anyone about the things that Jesus did instruct about? Here's some examples:

1) Turn the other check
2) Love thy neighbor as thyself, love one another, love thy enemies
3) Forgive others, that you may also be forgiven
4) Repent, or you shall likewise perish

... and so on and so forth. For each and any of those points above it can be easily shown from specific words without requiring a bitter fight and without first assuming what it is that one is trying to prove.

There's another class of evidence of what can be easily derived. For example, when Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" and Jesus does not correct him, but rather praises the faith of those who will believe this without requiring their hand in his side, then the scripture itself is showing us that Jesus is God.

"Trinity" is something completely different. It's not a word from the Bible, it's not a concept that is defined in the bible. If you read Justin Martyr from the 2nd century when he speaks of God and Jesus to the Jew, it doesn't sound like he's ever heard of a "Trinity."

Jesus had some harsh words for the religious leaders of the day that made up their own laws and placed them upon people. The intent seemed good at first, to put a "fence" about the law, but it wasn't what God had commanded nor intended. Don't try to make up more than what was given. Perhaps a "Trinity" model helps you in some way, but it this wasn't given or commanded of anyone else.

If you can clearly define what you mean, and show how accepting your idea will help Christian faith and practice in our real world and our real lives, then that is the better case to make. Provided that you can answer questions to the satisfaction of those who ask and show how it does not violate any specific scripture, you may yet reach agreement.

Raging, insulting, accusations of cult activity... these are not indicative of the wisdom from above, and are unlikely to persuade anyone. If we assume that what you have is something important and vital, then do you really want to answer to God and Christ why you unpersuaded people through such tactics? ... but if your answer is that no one would be persuaded anyway, then what's the point of the aggressive manner? Better to go in peace in that case.

 

[Rosenritter]

Absolute conjecture based on the unsupported presupposition that we are saved by a man made doctrine, as opposed to believing in Jesus the Christ of GOD, and His example, self-sacrifice, teachings, and commands.

The difference between saving faith in Jesus Christ our LORD, or the worship of a man-made idea and elevating that to the status of God (idolatry).

 

[glorydaz]

In other words, Jesus didn't instruct about a Trinity, and you haven't shown that in 900 + pages, so you're sticking with the tried and true "Call 'em a heretic and claim that the proof is somewhere else."

Glory, did you notice that there's no debate from anyone about the things that Jesus did instruct about? Here's some examples:

1) Turn the other check
2) Love thy neighbor as thyself, love one another, love thy enemies
3) Forgive others, that you may also be forgiven
4) Repent, or you shall likewise perish

... and so on and so forth. For each and any of those points above it can be easily shown from specific words without requiring a bitter fight and without first assuming what it is that one is trying to prove.

Rosey, did you notice that what you've listed is what Jesus taught concerning the law, and believers are no longer under the law? We see lots of people right here on TOL that don't understand why Jesus preached what He did while here on earth.

It doesn't mean that others of us don't understand Law versus Grace. It's the same with God being Triune....a Trinity.

There's another class of evidence of what can be easily derived. For example, when Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God" and Jesus does not correct him, but rather praises the faith of those who will believe this without requiring their hand in his side, then the scripture itself is showing us that Jesus is God.

Scripture itself shows us God is Triune and the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. You accept what Thomas said, but you reject verses that speak of the Holy Spirit being God in the exact same way. That's your error. And it's not a small one.

"Trinity" is something completely different. It's not a word from the Bible, it's not a concept that is defined in the bible.

It's only different because Godhead is used instead of Trinity, and the nature of God has been revealed to us throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.....hundreds of verses. Someone decided to give that name to the fact of God's nature as it has been revealed. The Godhead speaks of God's nature. And our Lord and Saviour makes it clear....And, I might add, uses the same word that is used in Genesis concerning making man in OUR image. Same with US and WE.

"WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." How exactly do the Father and Son come to dwell in them but through sending the Holy Spirit?

John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make OUR abode with him."​

Now, if you can't see the ONE God in three distinct "persons", there is something wrong with you. You see the "I" for Jesus, "Father", and "he" for the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

 

[glorydaz]

Raging, insulting, accusations of cult activity... these are not indicative of the wisdom from above, and are unlikely to persuade anyone. If we assume that what you have is something important and vital, then do you really want to answer to God and Christ why you unpersuaded people through such tactics? ... but if your answer is that no one would be persuaded anyway, then what's the point of the aggressive manner? Better to go in peace in that case.

Nice try, Rosie. I'm not raging, and if you're insulted, that's your problem not mine. It's a fact that cults deny the deity of Christ, a denial of God....we see that right here. It's a fact that denying the Holy Spirit is a denial of God, as well.


SO.....You can't shut me up with your hypocritical tongue lashing, especially since you are probably on the top of the list for being two faced. I can't be shamed by those who come amongst us in wolf's clothing, and I won't ignore your pointy ears and bushy tail, either.

I simply preach the word and it, alone, has the power to persuade anyone. So, I must chuckle at your feeble attempt to put me on a guilt trip. :chuckle:

 

[marhig]

If that "image" is said to be the Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, and Alpha and Omega - I'd have to say, 'Absolutely'.

I'm sure you would agree that an image couldn't create all things unless that "image" was more than a copy of some sort. This "image" you seem to scoff at created all things. This Image is our Creator God.

Colossians 1:14-16
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

When I look in the mirror, I see the image of me. The visible of what I cannot see without the mirror.... ( "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" ) I am able to see myself by looking in the mirror. It would be the exact image....not some made up image made of stones or carved wood.

When Jesus came to dwell among us, he was the image (what we could see - manifest in the flesh) of the invisible God. Had God not taken on human flesh, it would be like my not having a mirror so that I could see myself.



I'm not sure why this is so difficult....unless it's because you're trying to see something spiritual with the eyes of a natural man. Unfortunately they are most often "foolishness" to him. :think:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

Jesus was in the image of God, because God was in him and through him, Jesus had the fullness of God bodily, thus he was full of God and that's who you saw through him, not the fleshly side of person of Jesus, that side of Jesus had been totally put to death by the power of the Holy Spirit he was the vessel that the Spirit of Christ lived through. because Jesus lived not by his own will, but by the will of God so Jesus had his own will which he denied completely, never sinning, to live by the will of God who sent him .

And those who belong to God are comformed by the Spirit to be in the image of Christ, so does that make them Christ?

Romans 8

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[marhig]

Rosey, did you notice that what you've listed is what Jesus taught concerning the law, and believers are no longer under the law? We see lots of people right here on TOL that don't understand why Jesus preached what He did while here on earth.

It doesn't mean that others of us don't understand Law versus Grace. It's the same with God being Triune....a Trinity.



Scripture itself shows us God is Triune and the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. You accept what Thomas said, but you reject verses that speak of the Holy Spirit being God in the exact same way. That's your error. And it's not a small one.



It's only different because Godhead is used instead of Trinity, and the nature of God has been revealed to us throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.....hundreds of verses. Someone decided to give that name to the fact of God's nature as it has been revealed. The Godhead speaks of God's nature. And our Lord and Saviour makes it clear....And, I might add, uses the same word that is used in Genesis concerning making man in OUR image. Same with US and WE.

"WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." How exactly do the Father and Son come to dwell in them but through sending the Holy Spirit?

John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make OUR abode with him."​

Now, if you can't see the ONE God in three distinct "persons", there is something wrong with you. You see the "I" for Jesus, "Father", and "he" for the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

How do you get godhead to mean trinity? thanks

 

[marhig]

Nice try, Rosie. I'm not raging, and if you're insulted, that's your problem not mine. It's a fact that cults deny the deity of Christ, a denial of God....we see that right here. It's a fact that denying the Holy Spirit is a denial of God, as well.


SO.....You can't shut me up with your hypocritical tongue lashing, especially since you are probably on the top of the list for being two faced. I can't be shamed by those who come amongst us in wolf's clothing, and I won't ignore your pointy ears and bushy tail, either.

I simply preach the word and it, alone, has the power to persuade anyone. So, I must chuckle at your feeble attempt to put me on a guilt trip. :chuckle:

Here's the word as it is.

Jesus Christ himself spreaking

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD , and Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent.

I hope you see the truth one day instead of being fooled the false trinity chirchianity doctrine. You just have to look at their leaders to know it is false, they are nothing like Jesus, all pomp and ceremony. Jesus looked just like everyone else. No fine robes or gold, no statues to bow down to, nothing only his complete love for the father, his riches were inwardly and they poured out from him to all who listened and believed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

If that "image" is said to be the Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, and Alpha and Omega - I'd have to say, 'Absolutely'.

I'm sure you would agree that an image couldn't create all things unless that "image" was more than a copy of some sort. This "image" you seem to scoff at created all things. This Image is our Creator God.

Colossians 1:14-16
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

When I look in the mirror, I see the image of me. The visible of what I cannot see without the mirror.... ( "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" ) I am able to see myself by looking in the mirror. It would be the exact image....not some made up image made of stones or carved wood.

When Jesus came to dwell among us, he was the image (what we could see - manifest in the flesh) of the invisible God. Had God not taken on human flesh, it would be like my not having a mirror so that I could see myself.



I'm not sure why this is so difficult....unless it's because you're trying to see something spiritual with the eyes of a natural man. Unfortunately they are most often "foolishness" to him. :think:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

I agree that the Spirit of GOD created all things. I believe the firstfruits to be the Alpha and the judge of all to be the Omega, which is too the Christ / Spirit of GOD.

I understand that you don't believe me when I say my faith was given to me by GOD, and due to such, i personally am not seeking understanding through carnality. I was given spiritual insight and discernment by GOD, not any man or sacred text.

Please stop making assumptions about me that are unfounded.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Nope, I didn't say that. Maybe you aren't really listening. :think:

Sure you didn't; not in those exact words at least.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The man made doctrine you are swallowing is called a CULT. And your preacher seems to be Keypurr.

You understand the attempt by the enemy is to put our Lord and Saviour in a little box, don't you? He is more than Christ, more than the Son of God, more than an image or Spirit image, more than the Creator, more than the Redeemer, and yet He is also man. You're so worried about the doctrine of men that you don't even look to the Bible. Why is that, I wonder? :chew:

More unsubstantiated bull.

I read very often with understanding and clarity.

I'm sorry it doesn't always agree with your words, but that is no reason to continually accuse me of false things.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Rosey, did you notice that what you've listed is what Jesus taught concerning the law, and believers are no longer under the law? We see lots of people right here on TOL that don't understand why Jesus preached what He did while here on earth.

It doesn't mean that others of us don't understand Law versus Grace. It's the same with God being Triune....a Trinity.



Scripture itself shows us God is Triune and the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. You accept what Thomas said, but you reject verses that speak of the Holy Spirit being God in the exact same way. That's your error. And it's not a small one.



It's only different because Godhead is used instead of Trinity, and the nature of God has been revealed to us throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.....hundreds of verses. Someone decided to give that name to the fact of God's nature as it has been revealed. The Godhead speaks of God's nature. And our Lord and Saviour makes it clear....And, I might add, uses the same word that is used in Genesis concerning making man in OUR image. Same with US and WE.

"WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." How exactly do the Father and Son come to dwell in them but through sending the Holy Spirit?

John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make OUR abode with him."​

Now, if you can't see the ONE God in three distinct "persons", there is something wrong with you. You see the "I" for Jesus, "Father", and "he" for the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

Do you not know the Comforter puts the law in the hearts and minds of the believer; or do you ignore that in favor of continual sin regardless ofnwhat the conscience says?

The law written on the hearts of the believers isn't to be obeyed or even considered to you? I'm asking; not accusing.

 

[God's Truth]

The Spirit of GOD filled the body of Jesus wholly. Now the body of Christ is the congregation of believers.

According to your conclusion; the congregation equals god.

We must maintain an understanding of the difference between the mortal body and vessel of Christ, and the actual Spirit of Christ/ GOD.

Only in your confused mind did that happen.

You must be having me mixed up with marhigs beliefs.

The saved's blood does not take away the sins of the world.

How would you get get that I say the saved are God?

Answer that now or admit you are a false accuser.

Jesus' body is God's body in the flesh.

 

[God's Truth]

The Spirit of GOD filled the body of Jesus wholly. Now the body of Christ is the congregation of believers.

According to your conclusion; the congregation equals god.

We must maintain an understanding of the difference between the mortal body and vessel of Christ, and the actual Spirit of Christ/ GOD.

To the serious Reader, notice the scriptures I gave in the post that pops replied to me with false accusations, he didn't even address the scriptures I gave. More proof of a contentious person who says I says things that I do not.

 

[God's Truth]

Could you explain how the verses you provided prove that we do not die and are instantly brought to heaven upon physical death as opposed to being resurrected upon the end times and judgement?

Thanks.

How are they dead if Jesus is talking to them?

Answer that obvious question.

Then ask your lame question again.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't, but I don't say there are 3 Yahwehs either.

Nor do we. There is one Elohim, He created the Universe.

"Elohim" is a plural masculine noun, but since it's paired with "bara", a singular verb, in essence, "he created," "Elohim" is both singular and plural.

Translated directly then, Genesis 1:1 reads "In the beginning Gods He created the heavens and the earth."

There is a plurality in the Godhead. Or do you really think that Moses made a grammatical error in the first sentence of the most important book in all of history?

There is one triune God. He is three persons.

There is only one God who is father of the most important lord Messiah Yeshua.

I think a better way to say that is that there is only one Elohim, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three are one.

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. - 1 John 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John5:6-8&version=NKJV

 

[God's Truth]

Nope he didn't.

You need more study time GT.

Sent from my VS835 using TOL mobile app

I have already proven it with scripture, but all you got is your worthless opinion saying 'nope'.

I can prove it to you again that Jesus is God, but you close your eyes to it.

1 Timothy 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,


Now read this next scripture, it says that the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is the Lord of lords and the kings of kings.

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”


So if Jesus is not God the Father, how then is there TWO different King of kings and Lord of Lords?

Now talk about those scriptures instead of talking about your worthless opinions.

 

[God's Truth]

More unsubstantiated bull.

I read very often with understanding and clarity.

I'm sorry it doesn't always agree with your words, but that is no reason to continually accuse me of false things.

You got nerve to tell glory that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There is no truth in a Triune God, your just to "prideful" to see it. A three piece God is not mentioned in any of my translations.

Sent from my VS835 using TOL mobile app

"My translations?"

How about this one?

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. - 1 John 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John5:6-8&version=NKJV

Or this:

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus was in the image of God, because God was in him and through him, Jesus had the fullness of God bodily, thus he was full of God and that's who you saw through him, not the fleshly side of person of Jesus, that side of Jesus had been totally put to death by the power of the Holy Spirit he was the vessel that the Spirit of Christ lived through. because Jesus lived not by his own will, but by the will of God so Jesus had his own will which he denied completely, never sinning, to live by the will of God who sent him .

And those who belong to God are comformed by the Spirit to be in the image of Christ, so does that make them Christ?

Romans 8

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are not in the express image of God....nor did we come out from God, nor did we come down from heaven....nor did we create all things. What lengths and depths you folks won't go to in order to deny our Lord God and Saviour. :nono: