The Trinity

[popsthebuilder]

Both of those choices you gave rely on man's DOING. If man was able to DO something to be saved, Jesus didn't need to come at all.

Accepting the free gift and believing are both synonymous with reacting to a cause.

That cause is our Lord GOD.

the effect is indeed an actual observable effect/ change

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[glorydaz]

Saying that being freed from sin is actually free to sin is wholly and utterly wrong and yes; it too is synonymous with saying or believing one is simultaneously a sinner and a saint. Should and could are your supposed operative words; my position is that neither is available for the saved believer as Jesus died once for all sin. That really doesn't mean He dies perpetually for our perpetual sin.

You're disagreeing with the Apostle Paul, just as the Jews did, who were not aware of how the Law was to work. Paul had to explain the PURPOSE of the LAW to the Jews, and did so in chapters 6-8 of Romans.

You don't understand the importance of believers being delivered from the law, do you? Our not being under the law for righteousness is beyond your belief, isn't it?

Have you ever heard of the "forbidden fruit"? Paul explains that the Law actually works against us by making sin seem more attractive. The Law was never meant to make us holy.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.​

This is why Jesus is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness for those who believe. By being delivered from the law, we are no longer under it's bondage. The more you worry about sin...the more you are tempted to do wrong.

We are indeed dead to sin...free from the draw of sin....not tempted to sin more as you surmise.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Don't play innocent. You are constantly accusing the brethren of sin. It's as if you don't believe God is able to perform what He has promised. You certainly are NOT fully persuaded that His salvation is a free gift, and you have NO faith in His work in us.

All blatant assumption and projection

What sin have I accused you of?

Being persuaded, too is a synonym for a change of heart.

Who denies but he who does hear and know, yet sets idly by as if those things heard and known were worthless as opposed to priceless?

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[glorydaz]

And to you does that verse speak of continuing in sin and the wants of the flesh which are as dead to the Christian; or does it speak more towards repenting and turning from the old nature into the nature shown through Christ?

The two available.

What others are there?

Does belief inbred work of Jesus the Christ of GOD cause change or not within the believer?

Both of those choices you gave rely on man's DOING. If man was able to DO something to be saved, Jesus didn't need to come at all.

Accepting the free gift and believing are both synonymous with reacting to a cause.

That cause is our Lord GOD.

the effect is indeed an actual observable effect/ change

First choice - "continuing in sin and the wants of the flesh".

Wrong...we are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Second choice - "repenting and turning from the old nature".

Wrong....we are created IN CHRIST...a new creature (by the Spirit) when we believe.


I respond to what you actually say, and neither choice is the correct one, because you put it on man's doing...not God's.

 

[glorydaz]

Yet you openly deny your own scriptural reference when you say you are free to knowingly sin.

You are without excuse as you are not ignorant according to your own words; so what will you say when questioned about your direction you chose?

Do remember that the unbeliever isn't the heathen but the deceiver.

If you insist on LYING about what I have said....falsely accusing me because of your own inability to understand, then I see no reason to answer these silly posts of yours.

You're just a big talker and appear to be unteachable.

 

[glorydaz]

Being persuaded, too is a synonym for a change of heart.

Let's keep this simple, so you can perhaps avoid needless bloviating.



Being persuaded means someone else did the persuading. I was persuaded by the word of God. He gets the credit.

So who is this "change of heart" accomplished by? YOU or God?

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

Which is why I am confident that HE WILL PERFORM the good work in me that HE STARTED.

If you want to doubt and question that work of God, it's on you. I'm well aware of the power of the Holy Spirit in me. My desires have changed....no thanks to me or my efforts. It's why I don't question the life others live. They are either Christ's or they are not. Plain and simple.

That you doubt God is able is quite telling.

 

[God's Truth]

People say they are saved when they aren't, too.

How would a person know that they are saved? By merely saying that they believe and don't obey?

 

[God's Truth]

Both of those choices you gave rely on man's DOING. If man was able to DO something to be saved, Jesus didn't need to come at all.

You say you have to have faith. That is something you do.

 

[Bright Raven]

How would a person know that they are saved? By merely saying that they believe and don't obey?

John 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Where do you see the word obey in this verse?

 

[lifeisgood]

Then why errenously claim freedom to knowingly sin and stay bound to sin that you have knowingly been freed from by the death of the Christ?

Was His blood not enough for you to accept what He said and taught?

Like I have said to you, 'please get off gt's gravy train. It is not good for your comprehension.'

Who in the world is saying what you, popsthebuilder, has CONCLUDED.

 

[lifeisgood]

You are not glorifying God's Word.

Do you not understand what the WORD of God means?

It means everything that comes out of the mouth of God.

We can 'gleen' from his wisdom? Disgusting.

Foolish, foolish woman.

 

[God's Truth]

First choice - "continuing in sin and the wants of the flesh".

Wrong...we are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Second choice - "repenting and turning from the old nature".

Wrong....we are created IN CHRIST...a new creature (by the Spirit) when we believe.


I respond to what you actually say, and neither choice is the correct one, because you put it on man's doing...not God's.

So tell us what you obey then.

Why do you go against us for preaching obedience to Christ if you obey?

 

[lifeisgood]

To accept a gift you must use it, not throw it in the corner and act like it is worthless.

As I have said already, 'please get off gt's gravy train. It is not good for your comprehension.'

Who in the world is saying what you, popsthebuilder, has CONCLUDED.

 

[Rosenritter]

This was not Jesus or God speaking to Angels.

Epistle of Barnabas

Chapter 5

1For to this end the Lord endured to deliver His flesh unto corruption, that by the remission of sins we might be cleansed, which cleansing is through the blood of His sprinkling.

2For the scripture concerning Him containeth some things relating to Israel, and some things relating to us. And it speaketh thus; He was wounded for your transgressions, and He hath been bruised for our sins; by His stripes we were healed. As a sheep He was led to slaughter, as a lamb is dumb before his shearer.

3We ought therefore to be very thankful unto the Lord, for that He both revealed unto us the past, and made us wise in the present, and as regards the future we are not without understanding.

4Now the scripture saith; Not unjustly is the net spread for the birds. He meaneth this that a man shall justly perish, who having the knowledge of the way of righteousness forceth himself into the way of darkness.

5There is yet this also, my brethren; if the Lord endured to suffer for our souls, though He was Lord of the whole world, unto whom God said from the foundation of the world, Let us make man after our image and likeness, how then did He endure to suffer at the hand of men?


It's better to read this epistle for more understanding than what I'm using it here for.

It just happens to also help you see clearer on who was being spoken to and by whom.

1Mind, could you help me out here? How does that passage from the Epistle of Barnabas establish whether angels were before the Lord (had already been created) when God reviewed his work and said, "Let us make man in our own image?" I know who was speaking, and I know who was creating, the question being whether the angels were created before or after that event.

The significance of the answer being that a ruler or leader can speak in the plural sense that he represents his nation, or his heavenly host. The "royal we" is a very old concept:

The royal "we", or majestic plural (pluralis majestatis in Latin, literally, "the plural of majesty"), is the use of a plural pronoun (or corresponding plural-inflected verb forms) to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a sovereign (e.g., a monarch) or religious leader (e.g., the Pope).

Royal we - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

It seems to me that this is a much simpler understanding (and thus more likely) possibility of what "Let us create man in our image, after our likeness" signifies, rather than the One God, whom we are told created the heavens and the earth alone, by himself, singular, whom we are told over and over again "the LORD your God is One LORD" being actually a closet threesome.

 

[God's Truth]

Let's keep this simple, so you can perhaps avoid needless bloviating.



Being persuaded means someone else did the persuading. I was persuaded by the word of God. He gets the credit.

So who is this "change of heart" accomplished by? YOU or God?

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

Which is why I am confident that HE WILL PERFORM the good work in me that HE STARTED.

If you want to doubt and question that work of God, it's on you. I'm well aware of the power of the Holy Spirit in me. My desires have changed....no thanks to me or my efforts. It's why I don't question the life others live. They are either Christ's or they are not. Plain and simple.

That you doubt God is able is quite telling.

Are you kidding? You accuse me all the time of sinning.

What don't you get about God not making you obey?

God's love in us compels us to want to obey, but people still have to do the obeying, and people can still resist and sin.

You go against those who say we obey Jesus' teachings.

Think about that more and ask yourself why you do that.

In addition, ask yourself why you preach that we do not have to obey what Jesus taught when he walked the earth.

 

[lifeisgood]

You feel good saying that?

Yes, foolish, foolish woman.

The finished work isn't, "You no longer have to obey God". lol

The FINISHED WORK for salvation is Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work at the Cross of Calvary and He placing all who call on His name in Him.

I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[Rosenritter]

Good post and point.

The issue lies in the fact that your refutation is in itself based on the work of man's hands.

A simulation or computer image is a thing made by man, and yes, it can be wholly replicated and too intact in entirety. But we aren't talking about the constructs of man.

Surely there where no computers when scripture was written.

So; with that in mind, let us consider an image.

It is made by its artist.

Though it can me an exact image of a thing, it is merely a representation of that thing, and not in actuality the fullness of said object or subject matter, but a two dimensional representation or expression of a real three dimensional thing.

Tell me; which is most holy; the Temple, or substance within it?

Again very good point; and I love the tit for tat tactic; very golden rule of you.

peace friend.


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That which the temple serves is most holy. So if we are considering the Temple of God, which was more holy, the temple, or God?

Matthew 12:6-8 KJV
(6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
(7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
(8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

And according to Genesis 2:3, and Exodus 20:11, who is the Lord of the sabbath day?


Back to the concept of image. Computers may not have existed in that time, but a computer serves as a better model as it has parts that are more analogous to what we often think of as body, soul, and spirit.... and far more appropriate for representing a living thing than a static painting or engraving in stone. Justin Martyr used analogies to figures from Greek mythology in his apologies, whatever would better illustrate his point in a fashion that his audience understood. Therefore, I don't think that references to modern technology are out of bounds.

When we say that The Son of God was the image of Almighty God, this is certainly not said in a way to create difference of contrast. Had it said "just an image" or "in the likeness" and then accompanied with twenty to thirty other biblical statements illustrating difference and/or denying that they were equal, then perhaps, but certainly not when we have twenty to thirty to fifty statements to the opposite extreme, that this Son of God was nothing less than God Almighty.

 

[lifeisgood]

1 Corinthians: 2. 3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians: 3. 16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21. Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22. Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23. And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

So, how many people think those verses say "hey every one; there is no judgment for the believer; do whatever your carnal mind desires and never attain unto spiritual understanding nor cling tightly and faithfully to GOD'S Word?

Just curious.

peace

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You popsthebuilder is the only one who CONCLUDES that.

The FINISHED WORK for salvation is Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work at the Cross of Calvary and He placing all who call on His name in Him.

God does not see you, popsthebuilder, or I, God sees His Son and His Son is perfect and He has placed us in Him who have called on His name.

Get off gt's gravy train. It is not good for your comprehension.

 

[Rosenritter]

The image of GOD is a person.

What else would it be?

That is an image though.

I must comment on your seeming absolute lack of bias on this issue and your not fleeing from one side or another.

It is commendable. May we all learn from your own example.

Think this not flattery, buy a mere observation by a feeble ignorant man.

peace

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I would not disagree that the image of God (the Son of God) is a person. I can't point to a verse that says that in black and white, but I would agree. The point that I would make is that I don't feel comfortable saying that this was a different person. Perhaps a different instance of the same person, but certainly the attributes that we use to define one's true person were no different between this Father and Son.

 

[Rosenritter]

Aren't you just a wealth of information.

So would you consider that a form of idol worship?

What about the extravagance and images made by the hands of man that can me found in many "churches"?

Just curious.

Don't feel obligated to answer, please.

Sincerely

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I don't consider the picture or the painting idol worship. Whether a thing is an idol or not depends upon its intent or how it is used in practice.