The Trinity

[God's Truth]

However, you DEMAND that UNbelievers can obey, when an UNbeliever is one that does not believe in Jesus and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

An unbeliever can obey.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Look at that scripture more carefully.
Jesus says anyone. That means ANYONE. Anyone who chooses to do what God says...they will find out whether Jesus' teachings are from God OR NOT.

That is about an unbeliever. If it is not about an unbeliever, then why does Jesus say they WILL FIND OUT whether or not his words are from God?

It is about someone who does not yet know...or, someone who has not yet believed that Jesus' words are from God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Peter spoke of Paul and DID NOT say, "But Paul preaches another gospel." NO. Peter says people misunderstand Paul, and then he warns us to obey.

No, he said:


Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. - 2 Peter 3:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:14-16&version=NKJV

Peter says two things here, they are 1) that some of the things Paul wrote in his epistles are hard to understand, and 2) that those who are untaught and unstable twist those things (and the rest of scripture) to their own destruction.

1. Some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand.

If Peter and Paul were teaching the same message (note, not a different Gospel, but a different message), and if both of them were well educated in what they were teaching, why would Peter say that what Paul was saying is hard to understand? Again, if it were the same message, then would it not be easy for them both to understand?

2. Those who are untaught and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction.

This is why it is important to:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

For if you do not rightly divide God's word, GT, you end up saying what you say. You are untaught and unstable, and you twist Scripture to your own destruction.

Therefore:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

----

Also, Peter, after saying this to the people he is speaking to (the Jews, in case you need reminding) DOES NOT SAY to obey. He says:

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. - 2 Peter 3:17-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:17-18&version=NKJV

No mention of obedience. In fact, not once in the entire book of 2 Peter does Peter say to obey.

In short, you're the one who has misunderstood Paul, and twist what he says and the rest of scriptures to your own destruction.

 

[popsthebuilder]

She believes a UNbeliever must obey first, before the Lord will save them.

Her and I have spoken about this very topic in a couple of occasions. Her belief is based on scripture and is too true.

I, as an atheist, did not "believe" in GOD or Jesus or the Christ when I was initially saved. I had however heard of such. In sincere desperation and acknowledgement of depravity I earnestly pleaded to GOD and Jesus for help. I don't know if I could technically be called an atheist after said prayer and desperation and hope, but I still wasn't technically a believer when I was later given faith freely, until I actually received it.

This isn't word foreword scripture but it does seem to be in agreement with scripture.



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[Rosenritter]

A believer is ALREADY SAVED. No works required.

Continued faith is required. Is faith a work?

Luke 9:62 KJV
(62) And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

James 2:17-18 KJV
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

There are more passages along that theme. If we are being technical, no one is saved (from death) until they are literally saved from death, made immortal, changed from corruption to incorruption. Until then we still die. We are saved in belief now, in the sense that we can speak of that salvation in the present tense because the promise is sure. That promise, however, is conditional upon continued faith. Thus the "hand to the plough, and looking back" that Christ speaks of.

 

[popsthebuilder]

because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Yes, of the Gentiles also,since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

Question;

If you believed the life of a loved one to be in imminent danger would you do anything about it?

Belief and love are both things that you do and show through action.


Please consider my words before proclaiming me a heretic.

peace

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[God's Truth]

Her and I have spoken about this very topic in a couple of occasions. Her belief is based on scripture and is too true.

I, as an atheist, did not "believe" in GOD or Jesus or the Christ when I was initially saved. I had however heard of such. In sincere desperation and acknowledgement of depravity I earnestly pleaded to GOD and Jesus for help. I don't know if I could technically be called an atheist after said prayer and desperation and hope, but I still wasn't technically a believer when I was later given faith freely, until I actually received it.

This isn't word foreword scripture but it does seem to be in agreement with scripture.



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No unbeliever can be saved until they believe.

You calling to God for help is not something an atheist would do.

 

[popsthebuilder]

An “unbeliever” is someone who does not believe in Jesus; therefore, cannot and will NOT obey Jesus.



So, how many sins did you forget to repent of today? You do remember that sin you committed the first thing this morning, right? How about that sin 20 years ago? Are you sure you repented of that one also?

Actually the real unbeliever is the one shown truth and given faith, yet who throws it over his shoulder as if it is of no worth nor consequence.


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[Rosenritter]

No, he said:

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. - 2 Peter 3:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:14-16&version=NKJV

Peter says two things here, they are 1) that some of the things Paul wrote in his epistles are hard to understand, and 2) that those who are untaught and unstable twist those things (and the rest of scripture) to their own destruction.

1. Some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand.

If Peter and Paul were teaching the same message (note, not a different Gospel, but a different message), and if both of them were well educated in what they were teaching, why would Peter say that what Paul was saying is hard to understand? Again, if it were the same message, then would it not be easy for them both to understand?

Peter had the background of being a fisherman, Paul had the background of being a Pharisee. Peter and Paul are both on the same team. It's not that one is right and one is wrong, or that one has one gospel that is different from another. Same God, same Christ, same gospel, perhaps different facets, emphasis, or styles of speech or biblical allusions.

It's like two people on this board might be saying the "same thing" but one of them uses 20000 words and the other uses 20 words. One of them may be harder to understand than the other.

 

[Rosenritter]

Her and I have spoken about this very topic in a couple of occasions. Her belief is based on scripture and is too true.

I, as an atheist, did not "believe" in GOD or Jesus or the Christ when I was initially saved. I had however heard of such. In sincere desperation and acknowledgement of depravity I earnestly pleaded to GOD and Jesus for help. I don't know if I could technically be called an atheist after said prayer and desperation and hope, but I still wasn't technically a believer when I was later given faith freely, until I actually received it.

This isn't word foreword scripture but it does seem to be in agreement with scripture.

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There is precedent for God being willing to work with imperfect faith.

Mark 9:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Correct, because the scriptures that salvation is by faith and works are addressed to the Nation of Israel, NOT the Body of Christ.



Only for the Nation of Israel.



Notice how you quote Peter and James, and not Paul? You are trying to be a part of the Nation of Israel, and you are not part of the Body of Christ.

Please don't tell me you think there are two gospels.

Don't you know the seven spirits of GOD represent all nations? Don't you know that GOD'S people were spread throughout the world?

Do you really need me to go and find the scripture that says there is no Jew or gentile?

You really need to attempt to come up with a better reason to think you can freely knowingly sin with no consequences being a knowing Christian. You need to have some other justification for justifying ones repeated knowing attempts at freshly sacrificing the selfless lamb without blemish. Our salvation isn't dependent upon being utterly sinless for the extent of our life, but it is for us to answer when called and show our faith and faithfulness as effectual and not dead and not mere word.

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[popsthebuilder]

NONE of the books in the Bible were written to UNbelievers, you who so vociferously and boastfully say you know the word of God.

John 7:17 -- If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.



and it has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation, I could NOT lift an atom (maybe there's a smaller molecule) to DO anything to be SAVED.

Salvation is EXCLUSIVELY from God to an undeserving, puny one such as myself. That is why God calls it 'a gift' in His word. You cannot work for a gift; otherwise, it would not be called a gift.

Now, you, gt, can continue to obey to get saved and reject His gift.

Wouldn't rejecting a gift be as if you never received it? As in one rejecting the free gift of salvation would not have effectual faith, and too be the one not changing due to reception of said gift.

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[God's Truth]

No, he said:


Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. - 2 Peter 3:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:14-16&version=NKJV

Peter says two things here, they are 1) that some of the things Paul wrote in his epistles are hard to understand, and 2) that those who are untaught and unstable twist those things (and the rest of scripture) to their own destruction.

1. Some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand.

If Peter and Paul were teaching the same message (note, not a different Gospel, but a different message),

The gospel is the message.

and if both of them were well educated in what they were teaching, why would Peter say that what Paul was saying is hard to understand? Again, if it were the same message, then would it not be easy for them both to understand?

Peter isn't saying he has a hard time understanding. He is explaining that some things are hard to understand, especially for Gentiles who were not familiar with the purification works of the law.

2. Those who are untaught and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction.

This is why it is important to:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

For if you do not rightly divide God's word, GT, you end up saying what you say. You are untaught and unstable, and you twist Scripture to your own destruction.

Therefore:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You are the one who misunderstands Paul.

----

Also, Peter, after saying this to the people he is speaking to (the Jews, in case you need reminding) DOES NOT SAY to obey. He says:

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. - 2 Peter 3:17-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:17-18&version=NKJV

No mention of obedience. In fact, not once in the entire book of 2 Peter does Peter say to obey.

Are you kidding? The whole Chapter 3 is about Peter teaching we have to obey.
What do you think makes a person wicked?

In short, you're the one who has misunderstood Paul, and twist what he says and the rest of scriptures to your own destruction.

hahahahaha Those who obey are not twisting the scriptures and they are not going to be destroyed for that obedience.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No, he said:


Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. - 2 Peter 3:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:14-16&version=NKJV

Peter says two things here, they are 1) that some of the things Paul wrote in his epistles are hard to understand, and 2) that those who are untaught and unstable twist those things (and the rest of scripture) to their own destruction.

1. Some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand.

If Peter and Paul were teaching the same message (note, not a different Gospel, but a different message), and if both of them were well educated in what they were teaching, why would Peter say that what Paul was saying is hard to understand? Again, if it were the same message, then would it not be easy for them both to understand?

2. Those who are untaught and unstable twist scripture to their own destruction.

This is why it is important to:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

For if you do not rightly divide God's word, GT, you end up saying what you say. You are untaught and unstable, and you twist Scripture to your own destruction.

Therefore:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

----

Also, Peter, after saying this to the people he is speaking to (the Jews, in case you need reminding) DOES NOT SAY to obey. He says:

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. - 2 Peter 3:17-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:17-18&version=NKJV

No mention of obedience. In fact, not once in the entire book of 2 Peter does Peter say to obey.

In short, you're the one who has misunderstood Paul, and twist what he says and the rest of scriptures to your own destruction.

It's a given seeing as how it is written to believers,and Jesus says to believe is to follow.

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[JudgeRightly]

Continued faith is required. Is faith a work?

No.

Luke 9:62 KJV
(62) And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

James 2:17-18 KJV
(17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

There are more passages along that theme. If we are being technical, no one is saved (from death) until they are literally saved from death, made immortal, changed from corruption to incorruption. Until then we still die. We are saved in belief now, in the sense that we can speak of that salvation in the present tense because the promise is sure. That promise, however, is conditional upon continued faith. Thus the "hand to the plough, and looking back" that Christ speaks of.

First, I want to point out, again, that the verses that are being used to support "faith and works" are not from Paul and his epistles, but from other authors.

RR, could I suggest you purchase and listen to something on the topic of belief?

I believe that you may find it worth the listen.

This or at the very least this.

 

[God's Truth]

NONE of the books in the Bible were written to UNbelievers, you who so vociferously and boastfully say you know the word of God.

John 7:17 -- If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.



and it has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation, I could NOT lift an atom (maybe there's a smaller molecule) to DO anything to be SAVED.

Salvation is EXCLUSIVELY from God to an undeserving, puny one such as myself. That is why God calls it 'a gift' in His word. You cannot work for a gift; otherwise, it would not be called a gift.

Now, you, gt, can continue to obey to get saved and reject His gift.

Jesus saves us all on his own.

He chooses whom he saves.

He says he saves those who believe and obey.

 

[God's Truth]

Really....

"....blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (John 20:29)

Jesus doesn't save those who just believe. A person must have living faith.

 

[Rosenritter]

No.

First, I want to point out, again, that the verses that are being used to support "faith and works" are not from Paul and his epistles, but from other authors.

RR, could I suggest you purchase and listen to something on the topic of belief?

I believe that you may find it worth the listen.

This or at the very least this.

What does it matter whether it was penned by Moses or Jesus, Peter or Paul? Does the scripture not have one common author in the Holy Ghost? Nevertheless, does this count as Paul?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV
(24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
(25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

But you did ask ever so nicely. I don't plan to purchase anything but I'll try to look at what you linked. Thank you. OK, back again. I did look at it, but it's a link to purchasing CDs...

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus doesn't save those who just believe. A person must have living faith.

John 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No.



First, I want to point out, again, that the verses that are being used to support "faith and works" are not from Paul and his epistles, but from other authors.

RR, could I suggest you purchase and listen to something on the topic of belief?

I believe that you may find it worth the listen.

This or at the very least this.

Are you suggesting people throw out the Bible in favor of the books accredited to St. Paul alone? That would be quite convenient for any wishing faith and believe were to no effect. Fortunately all the Bible has the same message.

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[Rosenritter]

John 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Yes, but that being said, and also believed, is there is not more than one type of belief? Do the devils or the goats on his left hand in the day of judgment have eternal life?

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Matthew 25:44-46 KJV
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.