The Trinity

[Clete]

Alright, since it doesn't appear that Keypurr is going to offer any more straight answers to my questions, I'll just use the answers he's already given.

Don't say I didn't give you a chance to make better answers later on, Keypurr. These are your own words that you doubled down with by stating that "you do pretty well with your answers". Don't come trying to convince us all that you didn't mean what you said.

Let's review the questions I asked and your answers to them...

I asked the following three questions...

Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?

Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?

Did God die?​

You answered...

Alpha Omega, First Last in Revelations is ambigous, it could refur to both but I see them as the Father

God can not die, but a created form of God could.

I worship my God as God and my Lord as Lord.

Okay, so if the titles, "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" are referring to the Father (i.e. NOT Jesus Christ) and God (i.e. the Father) cannot die, why is it that John, the Apostle that Jesus loved, put the following words into the mouth of Him who called Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?...

Revelation 1:8 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

11 ...“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches..."

17 ..."“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death....​

And in that same verse, John falls down as dead in the worship of Him who was speaking. It is outright heresy to tolerate the worship of anyone other than God Himself. Jesus Himself said so...

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”​

Who was it that John was worshiping? The Almighty or Jesus, the One who died and lives for ever more?

Or could it be that the two are One?


You claim to base your doctrine on the bible and that you reject the Trinity doctrine on that basis. You also claim that you're tired of people citing the same old verses over and over again. And yet, you fail to avoid contradicting the simplest reading of a passage that you knew I was referencing!

Stop pretending that this is about an allegiance you have to the scripture! It isn't! You have some emotional fixation on this issue that has nothing to do with the bible or anything rational. You need to spend some time seriously thinking and praying about just what it is about the Trinity doctrine that has you so tied up inside. The doctrine of the Trinity is as biblical as anything can be and it is not poly-theism no matter how badly you want to turn it into that. You can go on chasing windmills if you like but I say, stop! Take a break and just relax and think about just what it is that you really have a problem with here and then ask whether that thing real?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

I guess my KJV is wrong for it uses the word CREATURE to describe the son who is the image of God. Some translations say first of all CREATION. That still makes the son a creature not God.

Please show where the Son of God is called a creature. Please diagram that sentence, if you can.

Colossians 1:13-17 KJV
(13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There are creatures spoken of, and He is said to be the firstborn of them. For bonus credit, you can explain how One can be the firstborn of Many, when He is their Creator, and by Him all things consist.

 

[Rosenritter]

Colossians 1:15

(ASV) who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(BBE) Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.

(CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.

(DRB) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.

(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.

(GW) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(ISV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

(NET.) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,

(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.

(NIV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

(TNIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

(YLT) who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

Creature, Creations ARE NOT GOD.

So you just ignore that the passage specifies that it was the Son of God that created all things. If the Son of God created all things, he cannot be one of those created things. You can try to ferret your way out of that, but you're fighting against what is specifically written for explanation.

I'm assuming Paul knew what he was talking about when he wrote that and wrote it for a reason.

 

[keypurr]

Wrong. The Holy Spirit anointed Him with power.

It doesn't say anything about God taking power from the Word and giving it to Jesus. Stop reading your theology into scripture.



Again, STOP READING YOUR THEOLOGY INTO SCRIPTURE.

The Holy Spirit alighted on Jesus. That's what Scripture says. It DOES NOT say that the Spirit "entered" Him.



Jesus became the Christ because "Christ" ("Christos") is Greek for Messiah, which is Hebrew for "anointed one." Jesus was anointed with Power.

"Christ" is not a separate person. It is a TITLE bestowed upon Jesus because Jesus was ANOINTED.

As for the timing of when God called Jesus His Son, IT'S IRRELEVANT! The entirety of Jesus' baptism happened in a few seconds, not minutes. SECONDS!



Leaning on your own understanding.



Arrogance, pride, boasting.



Anti-Christ.



Lies, deceit, twisting of scripture.



More twisting of Scripture to satisfy your theology.

None of those attributes come from Christians.

Read Acts 10:38 again.

He was anointed with the Holy Spirit AND POWER.

The Power is the logos.
The logos is the word.
The word is the spirit son, the express image.

Your not using your mind JR, your using your heart to defend what is not there.

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[keypurr]

The Trinity

You are apparently blind. Forget imagination, you can't even see what's right in front of you.

Scripture calls Jesus GOD.

Not so, it does not. You do not understand Who and what Christ is. You do not see that God was in him by the logos, you do not understand that the logos spoke through Jesus who is the body prepared for him. Your still in the early stages of understand how and why God sent his express image to become a human.

Christ was SENT from heaven to dwell in Jesus. And it was only when Jesus was anointed with the power of the logos God declared that this was his son.

.

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[keypurr]

Yeah? Mormons say the same thing.


I'd have to agree with you on this one - for the most part.


Actually, no you're not right. Hitler and even Satan himself also had/have the courage of their convictions. It's only a virtue if your conviction are true.


So do Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.


YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN!

You don't have the faintest idea what the gospel is!

I agree that going to church doesn't make you a Christian but Sunday certainly isn't Satan's day and being saved has nothing to do with what we do. The doing of Christianity is an effect, not a cause.


Mormons express their love for God and for Jesus all day long and twice on Sunday's. They'll all burn in Hell.


All Trinitarians do the same, Keypurr! There is no proof text you can reference that will disprove the Trinity doctrine. It doesn't exist. You're disproving something in your mind that seems to have nothing to do with what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. What's more is that you are not open to correction on this. You insist that the Trinity doctrine is some form of poly-theism and the simple fact is that it isn't.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You can believe in Santa and his flying reindeer if you wish, I must have reasonable proof to support my faith. Sunday in scripture, the the day of the Sun God mentioned in the OT. To not hold the seventh say Sabbath is to break his commandments. Like making another God, to break his law is to sin. I bet that is news to you. You trust in a church that over the years has distorted the teaching of our master.

Babylon is falling my friend, get out while you can.

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[keypurr]

Please show where the Son of God is called a creature. Please diagram that sentence, if you can.

Colossians 1:13-17 KJV
(13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There are creatures spoken of, and He is said to be the firstborn of them. For bonus credit, you can explain how One can be the firstborn of Many, when He is their Creator, and by Him all things consist.

Focus on Heb 1:3.

It speaks of a son who is the express image of God in all ways, in other words, a spirit like God. To see that opens up a lot of things for you.

Col 1 also speaks of a son who is the image of the invisible God and was the first born, for ALL things were created by God through this spirit son. Notice also that the Father was pleased that his son had is fullness.

Phil 2. This spirit took the form of man.

Heb 10.5 God provided a body for this spirit.

John 1, the logos, spirit son, became flesh in the body of Jesus.

This took place in Acts 10:38. Keep in mind that the logos spirit had the wisdom and power of God.

This logos spirit spoke through Jesus.

This is what has been given to me to share, it took many years and a lot of prayer to see how God did his work.

Folks do not wish to see that only God the Father is uncreated. Everything comes from the Father.

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[glorydaz]

But the Lord Jesus is not God. You live in a fantasy world. Jesus was SENT by his God. How many Gods do you have?


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Just one....the Saviour you deny. Sad for you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Read Acts 10:38 again.

He was anointed with the Holy Spirit AND POWER.

The Power is the logos.

No, Keypurr, the power is not the logos. The power is power. Literal power.

The logos is the word.

Duh. "LOGOS" translates as "word."

The word is the spirit son, the express image.

Keypurr, what does John 1:14 say? "The Word (spirit) became flesh.

Your not using your mind JR, your using your heart to defend what is not there.

Says the one who cannot accept what scripture says at face value.

Not, it does not. You do not understand Who and what Christ is. You do not see that God was in him by the logos, you do not understand that the logos spoke through Jesus who is the body prepared for him. Your still in the early stages of understand how and why God sent his express image to become a human.

All made up.

Christ was SENT from heaven to dwell in Jesus. And it was only when Jesus was anointed with the power of the logos God declared that this was his son.

More made up baloney that isn't found in scripture.

You can believe in Santa and his flying reindeer if you wish, I must have reasonable proof to support my faith.

You're the only one bringing up fictional characters, Keypurr.

Sunday in scripture, the the day of the Sun God mentioned in the OT. To not hold the seventh say Sabbath is to break his commandments.

Newsflash, Keypurr, Christians are freed from the Law.

Like making another God, to break his law is to sin. I bet that is news to you.

Oh, you mean like how Christ isn't God? NEWSFLASH! You don't know what you're talking about.

You trust in a church that over the years has distorted the teaching of our master.

Keypurr, how many churches have we referenced in this discussion? None?

What is your obsession with trying to prove the church wrong? Did you do something that got you kicked out of one?

Babylon is falling my friend, get out while you can.

NEWSFLASH! Babylon fell a long time ago, Keypurr.

 

[keypurr]

So you just ignore that the passage specifies that it was the Son of God that created all things. If the Son of God created all things, he cannot be one of those created things. You can try to ferret your way out of that, but you're fighting against what is specifically written for explanation.

I'm assuming Paul knew what he was talking about when he wrote that and wrote it for a reason.

The Son of God is a CREATURE. Firstborn of all creation.

Show me a verse that proves he isn't.

Jesus Christ said ALL POWER WAS GIVEN TO HIM. If he was God, he would not need the power given to him.

The true spirit Son, logos, was given the fullness of his God. He is a created form of God.


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[Right Divider]

Read Acts 10:38 again.

He was anointed with the Holy Spirit AND POWER.

The Power is the logos.
The logos is the word.
The word is the spirit son, the express image.

Your not using your mind JR, your using your heart to defend what is not there.

You're using bad English. "You are" is "you're" and not "your".

John 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

The WORD was GOD keypurr.

Titus 1:3-4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:3) But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; (1:4) To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. ​

How many Saviors do you think that there are keypurr?

 

[Right Divider]

Duh. "LOGOS" translates as "word."

:french:
And this was the guy that was telling us that we need to study in Aramaic.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Focus on Heb 1:3.

It speaks of a son who is the express image of God in all ways, in other words, a spirit like God. To see that opens up a lot of things for you.

Keypurr, nothing in the Bible contradicts what the Trinitarian believes. NOTHING. Calling God the Son the express image of the God the Father does not go against the Trinity doctrine.

Col 1 also speaks of a son who is the image of the invisible God and was the first born, for ALL things were created by God through this spirit son. Notice also that the Father was pleased that his son had is fullness.

Made up.

Phil 2. This spirit took the form of man.

Made up.

Heb 10.5 God provided a body for this spirit.

Made up.

John 1, the logos, spirit son, became flesh in the body of Jesus.

Made up.

This took place in Acts 10:38. Keep in mind that the logos spirit had the wisdom and power of God.

Made up.

This logos spirit spoke through Jesus.

Made up.

This is what has been given to me to share, it took many years and a lot of prayer to see how God did his work.

This is what happens when you lean on your own understanding. It has the appearance of wisdom, but is complete foolishness.

Folks do not wish to see that only God the Father is uncreated. Everything comes from the Father.

Your beliefs are cultish, Keypurr. EVERY cult believes that the Father is God. EVERY cult rejects the deity of Christ.

The Son of God is a CREATURE. Firstborn of all creation.

Made up.

Show me a verse that proves he isn't.

We have shown you multiple verses. You've rejected all of them in favor of your own theology.

Jesus Christ said ALL POWER WAS GIVEN TO HIM. If he was God, he would not need the power given to him.

He would if He had divested Himself of His power to become a man.

The true spirit Son, logos, was given the fullness of his God. He is a created form of God.

Made up baloney.

 

[Ktoyou]

Keypurr is not going to change his views in any way because he is 81 years old. I argued these same points with him when he was his 70s, but never got anywhere. Now, I do not try.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Made up baloney.

Not withstanding, "eternity past" is the same.

 

[glorydaz]

Keypurr is not going to change his views in any way because he is 81 years old. I argued these same points with him when he was his 70s, but never got anywhere. Now, I do not try.

Keypurr may be one whom God has given over to a reprobate mind...he is plainly speaking lies of his own imagination...preaching them no less. :sigh:

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Keypurr may be one whom God has given over to a reprobate mind...he is plainly speaking lies of his own imagination...preaching them no less. :sigh:

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

Keypurr is a righteous man.

You would rather condemn a person on a point of doctrine like any common Pharisee.

You people are sick and do not know it.

LA

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Keypurr may be one whom God has given over to a reprobate mind...he is plainly speaking lies of his own imagination...preaching them no less. :sigh:

1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;​

Plainly speaking lies?

Let God be true.

 

[Bright Raven]

Plainly speaking lies? :spam:

He has been teaching lies for years. If you embrace his teachings you believe in lies.

 

[keypurr]

Just one....the Saviour you deny. Sad for you.

Where did I deny Jesus Christ as my Saviour?

You have no clue what my faith is.


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